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Saundra and others,<br><br>Your first point is good and well intended, however, for clarification, my point was that if people are willing to drive to Moscow to smoke and drink from Pullman, they may drive to Troy or elsewhere to do the same. Will those who attend church service, as I like to call it, in outlying towns in order to drink and smoke in the same chair be drunk 100% of the time, no. However, the possibility and risk for impaired driving are still there. <br><br>I would like to research how many people drive from Pullman to Moscow to smoke and drink right now given the state law circumstances in Washington. I would assume not many. The comparison to drinking age from years ago is somewhat relevant, however, I would bet drinking age would have more influence on where a person consumes alcohol when compared to smoking and drinking indoors. In my opinion, a person will more likely travel over state lines to drink at a younger age than travel over state lines to drink and smoke indoors.<br><br>Somebody please correct me if I am wrong, but you can still smoke on outdoor bar patios in Washington? I could be wrong however.<br><br>Has business really increased in Moscow due to the ban of tobacco smoking in Washington? Lets see some hard data and numbers on this to convince me. Have the number of DUI traffic stops increased between Pullman and Moscow since the Washington ban? How about the number of arrests of Pullman or Washington residents in Moscow due to factors related to alcohol use, fighting, drunk in public, public urination, DUI, etc?<br><br>Also, keep in mind that Idaho has already banned smoking in restaurants in Idaho. Ask the restaurant owners how that has affected their businesses. My assumption, and I could be making an ass of myself, is that business decreased initially and then began to increase over time. Obviously my assumed increase in business is pre financial meltdown.<br><br>Tim<br><br>P.S. I spent literally thousands of dollars at John's Alley over a four year period and never once complained to Vert or anyone else about the smoke. However, I was usually inebriated from numerous PBR beers so the smoke really did not bother me. When I was sober though, I noticed it a lot more. Plus, it seems as though Vertical Dave and the rest of the Alley crew worked to cut down the smoke by installing air scrubbers and fans, that seemed to help some.<br><br>" 'Politics is the art of controlling your environment.' That is one of the key things I learned in these years, and I learned it the hard way. Anybody who thinks that 'it doesn't matter who's President' has never been Drafted and sent off to fight and die in a vicious, stupid War on the other side of the World -- or been beaten and gassed by Police for trespassing on public property -- or been hounded by the IRS for purely political reasons -- or locked up in the Cook County Jail with a broken nose and no phone access and twelve perverts wanting to stomp your ass in the shower. That is when it matters who is President or Governor or Police Chief. That is when you will wish you had voted." - Hunter S. Thompson<br><br><br><br><br><hr id="stopSpelling">From: v2020@ssl.fastmail.fm<br>To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:11:13 -0700<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Public Smoking<br><br>
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<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">LOL
– this discussion is getting pretty interesting because I think folks’
biases – or perhaps ignorance -- is showing.</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">For
instance, how many of you who think the City should ban smoking in bars have
also signed on to fight grass field burning, which is a major health problem in
Eastern WA/Northern Idaho? If not, why haven’t you? Is it
because you have Michelle Bachmann tendencies: while there are
alternatives, burning grass fields is “natural,” so it can’t
be harmful? Or, is it because you want to make some artificial
distinction between the necessity of the economic “health” of big
growers as opposed to the economic “health” of <b>local</b> small business
owners? Or, is it because you think it fair to pick on people – and
businesses – that advocate a lawful activity because your way is the only
right way?</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Also,
how many of you have bothered to let the City Council know you object to the
very real problem in some neighborhoods from campfires or bonfires? In
those cases, truly innocent property owners and tenants are prevented from the enjoyment
of their homes & yards when people burn. If you don’t think it’s
an issue, get out of your little bubbles where “tobacco smoke is the only
evil smoke” to talk to the parents of kids who can’t play outside,
or to the people who can’t open their windows for cooling or ventilation when
neighbors are partying with fire. Why have you targeted local small
businesses that provide a venue for legal adult recreation while turning a
blind eye to those who are harmed in their own homes or yards through the
unhealthy behavior of their neighbors?<b></b></span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It’s
interesting when that very real problem has been brought up, it’s been
dismissed by Council members. It will be instructive to see exactly what
position the Council takes on banning smoking in bars when they’ve
blatantly ignored the very real health consequences for people <b>in their own
homes and yards</b> when neighbors burn for pleasure polluting entire
neighborhoods – perhaps their biases will show as well.</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">To
me, this is really a no-brainer, and it’s not a solution any of you who seem
to be in favor of banning smoking in bars have addressed: if there’s
adequate support for those who want smoke-free bars, start your own instead of
insisting on gambling with the economic livelihoods of local small business
owners. Put <b>your</b> money on the line rather than theirs -- or try to
sell them on the idea because there’s no law on the books <b>preventing</b>
anyone who wants to own & operate a smoke-free bar or tavern from doing so
now. If you’re right about your speculation, how is that not a
win-win situation? And, if you’re wrong, then you’ve only
lost your own money rather than forcing the economic destruction of those who
don’t share your ideas.</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Here’s
a question: what happens when at least some of those who want the City to
ban smoking in bars & taverns aren’t happy when they get their way but
some of their coveted venues opt to go the private club route to continue allow
smoking? What’s their next move to force all of us to bend to their
will???</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">In
another post, Tim wrote:</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">“</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Verdana','sans-serif';">Will business be
lost to other locales? Pullman and all of WA is smoke free, isn't
it? I guess maybe the college kids and other patrons who smoke could
drive to Troy, Lewiston, Genesse, Potlatch, or elsewhere. Risk a DUI
though, I doubt it.”</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Verdana','sans-serif';"><br>
</span><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Three
points about that comment.</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">First,
why the assumption that those who go to bars, including smokers, then drive
drunk? While I don’t go to bars much at this point in my life, I sure
used to, and never <b>once</b> have I risked a DUI leaving one.</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Second,
perhaps you’re too young to know this, but there was a period of time
when Moscow bars did a booming business from college students when the drinking
age here was lower than in Pullman! Also, I know quite a few people –
college-age & older – who choose to visit Moscow bars precisely because
they can enjoy smoking with their beverages. So, I think it’s a
pretty safe assumption that if Moscow bans smoking in taverns & bars, that
business <b>will</b> be lost back to Pullman establishments.</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Given
the current perception of many in this community that our current council is
nothing if not helpful to business across the state line, I personally can’t
help but wonder if this is just another case in point?</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Third,
while I don’t visit bars much, if Moscow opts to ban smoking, I will
definitely take my very limited business to bars that better suit my needs –
I always enjoy visiting our surrounding communities, and I’d definitely
be willing to do so in order to be able to enjoy a cigarette with my glass of
wine. And, I’d likely find new restaurants to enjoy as well if I
need to leave Moscow to enjoy a cigarette with a glass of wine before dinner.
Granted, the loss of my puny bar business isn’t going to hurt any local
establishment, but in chatting with other local smoker friends, they have
pretty much the same attitude I do.</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I
think some have tried to make the point that in locales where smoking has been
banned from bars, business has actually improved. I’ve talked with
friends who own bars in some of those areas, and the real-life feedback I’ve
gotten has been mixed, but none of them consistently saw an increase in
business that stayed up, and quite a few saw decreases. In fact, a couple
went under. However, the <b>universal</b> comment has been that this is a
crazy time to even contemplate such a change with the tough economic times.</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Indeed,
wasn’t there an article sometime in the last few months about the
challenges area bars were facing with the current economic hardship (thanks
again, Bush)?</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">So,
I really think it’s disingenuous for folks to try to “sugar coat”
the economic hardship on local bars & taverns from a City ordinance banning
smoking in those establishments, particularly at this time.</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Saundra Lund</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Moscow, ID</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Well-behaved
women seldom make history.</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">~
Laurel Thatcher Ulrich</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2009
through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt,
or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written
permission of the author.*****</span></b></p>
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