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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Mr. Campbell's apology wasn't offered to me either (it
would be impossible not to laugh if it had) but he did mention me
in, among other places, </FONT><FONT face=Arial>his post below so I do feel
comfortable wondering how someone can in one breath make the
following unsupported claims:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>"slavery wasn't so bad -- which is one fringe claim you
defended -- or that the holocaust never happened"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>"explain to me what the difference is between Wilson's
revisionism about US slavery -- which you've defended often" </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>And in the next say:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>"I never SAID they supported holocaust
deniers"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>"I don't even think that Crabtree is a slavery
defender"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>And be taken seriously in any way at all.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=kjajmix1@msn.com href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com">keely emerinemix</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=philosopher.joe@gmail.com
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</A> ; <A
title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 15, 2009 10:53
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Apology, bias,
and the holocaust</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Joe's apology wasn't offered to me, but he did mention me in
his post below, so I do want to just add my comment. What I wrote to Joe
about saying that "everybody" who disagrees with him is, in his mind, "a
slavery defender or Holocaust denier," was a bit of hyperbole intended to
suggest that he was lashing out with labels that don't apply to the people who
received them. <BR><BR>Joe didn't take well to my private suggestion or
my on-line post, but he did mention me, so I want to clear up one
thing.<BR><BR>I'm sure he understands that I wasn't suggesting that he really
believes, always, that every single person who ever disagrees with him on any
point is automatically, in his mind, always a Wilson supporter or, in every
case, an ally of Holocaust deniers, or simply bad, bad, bad. (See the
hyperbole?) I was aware that a decent guy would seem unreasonable to his
critics by writing in a way that didn't reveal his true character, and also
aware that many of us were pained to see him lash out as he did -- for which
he has graciously apologized. I just want to make sure that no one
misunderstands what I said to him.<BR><BR>For the record, I think there's very
little doubt in anyone's mind how I feel about Wilson, Christ Church, hate
groups, racism, bigotry, or anything else. Like Joe, I could not live
with myself if I countenanced bigotry -- particularly, in my case, bigotry in
the name of Christ. I've immersed myself over the last seven years in
attempting to understand and critique all of the above, and, like Joe, I
sometimes regret the way I've put something. Because of that, I commend
him for his apology
here.<BR><BR>Keely<BR>http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>>
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:12:45 -0700<BR>> From:
philosopher.joe@gmail.com<BR>> To: vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> Subject:
[Vision2020] Apology, bias, and the holocaust<BR>> <BR>> I received a
number of off-list emails suggesting that I went too far<BR>> today, which
I suppose is correct. For most of the time I was being<BR>> playful and
that was careless on my part, given the serious nature of<BR>> the
topic.<BR>> <BR>> I'm especially sorry to Dan and Paul for making it
seem as if they<BR>> support holocaust deniers, etc. They do not. I'm sure
in their views<BR>> on these subjects are complex, more complex than can be
explained in<BR>> short responses to my questions.<BR>> <BR>> Note I
never SAID they supported holocaust deniers, nor did I ever<BR>> believe
it. I merely asked some questions. Nor were they loaded<BR>> questions. A
loaded question would have been: Do you STILL support<BR>> holocaust
deniers? Mine was just the "Do you" part, which I thought<BR>> would be
easy enough to answer. My answer is: "No, I don't support<BR>> holocaust
deniers (or slavery revisionists)." (Thanks to Gary Crabtree<BR>> for (sort
of) giving this same answer!)<BR>> <BR>> Which brings me to the point I
was trying to make in the beginning,<BR>> which is that we've become
complacent in our acceptance of radical<BR>> right wing viewpoints. Some of
this is for political advantage, e.g.,<BR>> conservative candidates afraid
to say anything for fear of losing<BR>> votes. (Again, I'm sorry for
implicating Dan in this since, as I said,<BR>> I think his views are more
complex and not of this nature.) Some of<BR>> this is due to an incorrect
view about objectivity: that being<BR>> objective requires you to see both
sides of everything. Well, not<BR>> everything has two sides. The other
side of "Denying the holocaust is<BR>> wrong" is not a defensible position,
IMO. Call me arrogant but I've<BR>> seen the Sorrow and the Pity.<BR>>
<BR>> According to Keely, I think that "everyone who disagrees with [me]
on<BR>> this point is either a slavery defender, locked into or indebted
to<BR>> the Wilson camp, or simply just bad." I don't even think that
Crabtree<BR>> is a slavery defender. He has defended slavery defenders,
which is bad<BR>> enough in my book, but I have said time and time again
that I don't<BR>> think he is racist. And he is the only one that I think
is in the<BR>> Wilson camp. I'm simply astonished at how unwilling even
moderate<BR>> conservatives are when it comes to criticizing the good
pastor, or<BR>> criticizing crazed right wing viewpoints. I have no
such<BR>> unwillingness. In fact, I feel an obligation to be
critical.<BR>> <BR>> I grew up in a town in NJ with about the population
of Moscow spread<BR>> out over one square mile; 40% of folks are Jewish.
When I was in high<BR>> school you could walk into almost any deli on
almost any day and find<BR>> someone with a number tattooed on his or her
arm indicating time spent<BR>> in a Nazi concentration camp. Many of my
best friends had grandparents<BR>> with such tattoos, though all of them
are now dead.<BR>> <BR>> I still visit about 2-3 times a year and often
I get to talk with my<BR>> friends' parents since I still stay in touch
with many of them. (Five<BR>> of my friends flew out last December for my
50th birthday party, for<BR>> instance.) When I tell my friends about
Wilson et. al. and their<BR>> criticisms of gays and Muslims along with
their slavery revisionism,<BR>> they remind me that this is how it started
in Germany. It starts with<BR>> minorities, because no one but them will
complain, and then it builds<BR>> from there. There was a saying I grew up
with: Never forget. History<BR>> has a way of repeating itself and if one
is not careful, if one<BR>> forgets, it becomes all the more
possible.<BR>> <BR>> I have to look my friends' parents in their eyes
when I see them 2-3<BR>> times a year and I could not in clear conscience
do so without knowing<BR>> that I did my best to speak out against hate
speech. I know that<BR>> people think that speech and beliefs are innocuous
but I respectfully<BR>> disagree (more on this in another post).<BR>>
<BR>> The fact is that there are reports from numerous sources about
an<BR>> increase in hate crimes, especially since the last election.
My<BR>> earlier posts on this topic mostly contained questions: Is there
a<BR>> connection between a rise in violence and conservative tolerance
for<BR>> divisive speech? Later I became more aggressive but at no point
did I<BR>> BLAME conservatives for the recent murders inspired by right
wing<BR>> extremists. Clearly the blame lies with the murderers. My point
is<BR>> more subtle.<BR>> <BR>> We just finished an 8-year stretch in
which hate politics was used to<BR>> get an idiot elected president for two
successive terms. Just think<BR>> about that for a moment. He wrecked the
economy, started two endless<BR>> wars, and made a joke of our
constitutional rights -- to name just a<BR>> few things. But the worst of
all of it was the way he won the<BR>> elections, since it was built on
hate, pure and simple. Many key<BR>> states -- as well as politically
irrelevant states like Idaho -- came<BR>> out in huge numbers to vote
against gay marriage. He stirred up<BR>> hatred of Muslims to support the
war as well as hatred of foreigners<BR>> to support his draconian
immigration policy. And, I think, we are<BR>> still suffering from the
consequences of that election strategy.<BR>> <BR>> Today I saw a
documentary on Information Discovery about the rise of<BR>> hate groups in
American. And guess what? The strategy for recruitment<BR>> in such groups
is much the same as Bush's election strategy: use hate<BR>> to build
interest. And I think it is undeniable that these groups are<BR>> growing
in numbers. (A friend mailed me something on this that I'll<BR>> post
should any of you be in doubt.)<BR>> <BR>> Does this make us
blameworthy, or conservatives blameworthy, for the<BR>> recent murders? Of
course not. But that is not the issue. The issue is<BR>> that each of us is
part of the world and what happens in that world is<BR>> due in some part
to our actions. We can speak out against hate speech<BR>> or not and
whether we do or not will have some influence on our<BR>> future. In less
than 50 years, whites in the US will be a minority in<BR>> this country. So
respect for minority viewpoints is only a matter of<BR>> time.<BR>>
Either we all learn to respect each other's differences -- which<BR>>
includes, in my book, speaking out against hate speech whenever the<BR>>
opportunity arises -- or our children and children's children will<BR>>
suffer the consequences. It doesn't matter if anyone blames us for it.<BR>>
What matters is that we can do something about it now.<BR>> <BR>> Joe
Campbell<BR>> <BR>>
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