<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>This all begs the question. For instance, some of these points are just the very ones I'm making!<br><br>Joe Campbell</div><div><br>On Jun 14, 2009, at 10:18 AM, "g. crabtree" <<a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div><span></span></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Another fine example of say anything. Particularly
funny in a post where you ask me for examples to make my point. Here are a
few:</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><br><!-- End Headline --><!-- Headline --><a href="http://www.timeswatch.org/articles/2009/20090609140638.aspx"><font size="4">Obama's Muslim Outreach Bears Fruit in Lebanon's Elections -- Maybe Iran
Too!</font></a><br><br><font face="Arial" size="2">what a joke!</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><a href="http://www.timeswatch.org/articles/2009/20090609151058.aspx"><font size="4">"Caring" Obama Has Osama on the Run</font></a></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">As shown by?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4"><a href="http://www.timeswatch.org/articles/2009/20090610130902.aspx">Cheney-Palin
Style of Patriotism Just "Belligerent and Defensive
Chauvinism"</a></font><br></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><a href="http://www.timeswatch.org/quotes/2009/20090610141848.aspx"><font size="4">Times Watch Quotes of Note -- Obama Just "Trying to Bring People
Together," but GOP Dredges Up "Race Wars"</font></a></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><a href="http://www.timeswatch.org/articles/2009/20090612130950.aspx"><font size="4">Is the Obama Economic Stimulus Taking Effect? NYT
Optimistic</font></a></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Nearly 10% unemployment, what effect might they be
referring to?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><a href="http://www.timeswatch.org/articles/2009/20090612141218.aspx"><font size="4">Blaming Conservative Media for Killings, Take Two</font></a></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">And last but far from the least:</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div>
<h1 class="articleHeadline">THE PUBLIC EDITOR; Is The New York Times a Liberal
Newspaper?</h1>
<h6 class="byline">By DANIEL OKRENT</h6>
<h6 class="dateline">Published: Sunday, July 25, 2004</h6>
<div class="dateline">
<p>OF course it is.</p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/25/opinion/the-public-editor-is-the-new-york-times-a-liberal-newspaper.html"><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/25/opinion/the-public-editor-is-the-new-york-times-a-liberal-newspaper.html">http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/25/opinion/the-public-editor-is-the-new-york-times-a-liberal-newspaper.html</a></a></font></p></div>
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<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Believe me, I could do this all day long. Now
that I have provided the example(s) that you requested how
about</font><font face="Arial" size="2"> you back up your stupid claim of my saying
that "slavery wasn't so bad" or that the holocaust never happened? Since you
claim that I've done it "often" this should be easy for you.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">g</font></div>
<blockquote dir="ltr" style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="philosopher.joe@gmail.com" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe
Campbell</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="jampot@roadrunner.com" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g. crabtree</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="v2020@ssl.fastmail.fm" href="mailto:v2020@ssl.fastmail.fm">Saundra Lund</a> ; <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com>"><<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>></a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 13, 2009 8:34
PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] NYTimes: The
Big Hate</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>This is precisely why I'm disagreeing with Paul. Folks like you have got
him convinced that the NY Times is as bad as Fox News. What a
joke! </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>And I'm not sure what is wrong with the quotes below. In fact by making
the claim that "the NY Times does it too" -- your favorite form of "criticism"
-- you are agreeing with the very claims you quote; you're just extending the
criticism (without evidence) to other news organizations.<span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.231373)"></span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.231373)"><br></span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.231373)">Of
course, how else are you going to get someone to believe that slavery wasn't
so bad -- which is one fringe claim you defended -- or that the holocaust
never happened etc. unless you poison the well? Which brings us back to my
original point.</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.231373)"><br></span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.231373)">Here
are two things you could do to make your point. Otherwise it is just a bunch
of unsupported rhetoric and you'll have proven my point.</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.231373)"><br></span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.231373)">First,
you can come up with explicit examples in which the NY Times shows bias, like
the ones about Fox News noted in the article. Don't just say they are biased
give examples of bias like the ones noted below.</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.231373)"><br></span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.231373)">Second,
you can explain to me what the difference is between Wilson's revisionism
about US slavery -- which you've defended often -- and the denial of the
holocaust, other than degree? How are they both not offensive, radical
viewpoints lacking any rational support whatsoever? You defended the one; what
could keep you from defending the other? </span></div>
<div><br>Joe Campbell</div>
<div><br>On Jun 13, 2009, at 7:29 PM, "g. crabtree" <<a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</a></a>>
wrote:<br><br></div>
<div></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I'd have thought that it should go without
saying (considering the respondent and the response, my mistake) that my
tongue was slightly in cheek but, having said that, what conclusion
should a conservative reach with remarks such as...</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">"...to an even greater extent, right-wing
extremism is being systematically fed by the conservative media and
political establishment."</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">and</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">"...Fox News and the R.N.C. haven’t directly
incited violence, despite Bill O’Reilly’s declarations that “some” called
Dr. Tiller “Tiller the Baby Killer," (wasn't that what the left called US
troops freshly returned from Vietnam?) that he had “blood on his hands,” and
that he was a “guy operating a death mill.” But they have gone out of their
way to provide a platform for conspiracy theories and apocalyptic
rhetoric..."</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">As though MSNBC and the New York Times hasn't.
Responsibility is nowhere to be found. Mr. Rumelhart is correct all news
comes from a point of view. FOX no less nor anymore than any other. To
castigate conservatives for the random acts of a couple of lone nut cakes is
no different than were those on the right to hold the wacky left
responsible for the attacks of 9/11. But then again the rule has always been
"it's all good from the left and the right should fall in line
(like the "respectable conservative friends") or shut up and die. Sorry I
don't get on board.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Oh, and by the way, for what should I be
holding myself accountable? I'd love to see your examples of my
"legitimizing wackos and fringe freaks."</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">g</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="v2020@ssl.fastmail.fm" href="mailto:v2020@ssl.fastmail.fm">Saundra
Lund</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"></a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 13, 2009 12:19
PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] NYTimes:
The Big Hate</div>
<div><br></div>
<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">That’s just
plain silly – that’s not what the article said at all. Leave it to
Mr. Crabtree to be completely disingenuous in the hope that folks won’t
take the time to read the op-ed piece and will instead have his inane
remarks stuck in their heads as accurate. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">The op-ed
piece is actually quite good because it talks about <gasp>
responsibility. Mr. Crabtree is all for responsibility except when
it means holding himself accountable. On a much smaller scale, of
course, Mr. Crabtree is a prime example of the point of the op-ed
piece: legitimizing wackos & fringe freaks -- be they the
radical right or the radical left -- is dangerous.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Sadly, the
currently leaderless Party of No seems to have forgotten this factoid,
which perhaps is a significant factor for why they are currently
leaderless. Certainly, my respectable conservative friends for the
most part have bailed from the GOP in large part because of the current
politics of desperation of “embracing the fringe freaks” while abandoning
the ideals the party has stood for. Some are still hanging in
there hoping & working for change, and for the sake of this nation, I
hope they are successful and that it happens soon. The hate- and
fear-mongering path the party has sold out to is disgraceful and
dangerous. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Saundra
Lund<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Moscow,
ID<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">The
only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">~
Edmund Burke<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">*****
Original material contained herein is Copyright 2009 through life plus 70
years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce
outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of
the author.*****<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <a href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a></a>
[<a href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a></a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>g. crabtree<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 13, 2009
11:43 AM<br><b>To:</b> Joe Campbell; Moscow Vision 2020<br><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [Vision2020] NYTimes: The Big Hate<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Okey Dokey, you
and Krugman believe that people who watch FOX news, occasionally listen to
Limbaugh, Beck, or Hannity, are a recently returned vet, a conservative or
a RNC member are murderous terrorists. Whats your plan for dealing
with this calamity? Lets hear about how you and all of the forces of truth
and light plan on dealing with this unfortunate turn of events. This ought
to be a hoot!</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">g</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <a title="philosopher.joe@gmail.com" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe Campbell</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Moscow
Vision 2020</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Saturday,
June 13, 2009 7:51 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> [Vision2020]
NYTimes: The Big Hate<o:p></o:p></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">From The New York Times:<br><br>OP-ED COLUMNIST: The
Big Hate<o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="byline">
<p class="MsoNormal">By <a href="http://topics.nytimes.com/top/opinion/editorialsandoped/oped/columnists/paulkrugman/index.html?inline=nyt-per">PAUL
KRUGMAN</a><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br><br>The rise of right-wing extremism is being
systematically fed by the conservative media and political
establishment....<br><br><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/12/opinion/12krugman.html"></a><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/12/opinion/12krugman.html"><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/12/opinion/12krugman.html">http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/12/opinion/12krugman.html</a></a><br><br>Get
The New York Times on your iPhone for free by visiting <a href="http://nytimes.com/iphoneinstaller"></a><a href="http://nytimes.com/iphoneinstaller"><a href="http://nytimes.com/iphoneinstaller">http://nytimes.com/iphoneinstaller</a></a><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br><br>Joe Campbell<o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align="center">
<hr align="center" width="100%" size="2">
</div>
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