<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>This is precisely why I'm disagreeing with Paul. Folks like you have got him convinced that the NY Times is as bad as Fox News. What a joke! </div><div><br></div><div>And I'm not sure what is wrong with the quotes below. In fact by making the claim that "the NY Times does it too" -- your favorite form of "criticism" -- you are agreeing with the very claims you quote; you're just extending the criticism (without evidence) to other news organizations.<span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.231373); "></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.231373);"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.231373); ">Of course, how else are you going to get someone to believe that slavery wasn't so bad -- which is one fringe claim you defended -- or that the holocaust never happened etc. unless you poison the well? Which brings us back to my original point.</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.231373);"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.231373); ">Here are two things you could do to make your point. Otherwise it is just a bunch of unsupported rhetoric and you'll have proven my point.</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.231373);"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.231373); ">First, you can come up with explicit examples in which the NY Times shows bias, like the ones about Fox News noted in the article. Don't just say they are biased give examples of bias like the ones noted below.</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.231373);"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.231373); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.231373); ">Second, you can explain to me what the difference is between Wilson's revisionism about US slavery -- which you've defended often -- and the denial of the holocaust, other than degree? How are they both not offensive, radical viewpoints lacking any rational support whatsoever? You defended the one; what could keep you from defending the other? </span></div><div><br>Joe Campbell</div><div><br>On Jun 13, 2009, at 7:29 PM, "g. crabtree" <<a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I'd have thought that it should go without saying
(considering the respondent and the response, my mistake) that my tongue was
slightly in cheek but, having said that, what conclusion should a
conservative reach with remarks such as...</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">"...to an even greater extent, right-wing extremism
is being systematically fed by the conservative media and political
establishment."</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">and</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">"...Fox News and the R.N.C. haven’t directly
incited violence, despite Bill O’Reilly’s declarations that “some” called Dr.
Tiller “Tiller the Baby Killer," (wasn't that what the left called US troops
freshly returned from Vietnam?) that he had “blood on his hands,” and that he
was a “guy operating a death mill.” But they have gone out of their way to
provide a platform for conspiracy theories and apocalyptic
rhetoric..."</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">As though MSNBC and the New York Times hasn't.
Responsibility is nowhere to be found. Mr. Rumelhart is correct all news comes
from a point of view. FOX no less nor anymore than any other. To castigate
conservatives for the random acts of a couple of lone nut cakes is no different
than were those on the right to hold the wacky left responsible for
the attacks of 9/11. But then again the rule has always been "it's all
good from the left and the right should fall in line (like the
"respectable conservative friends") or shut up and die. Sorry I don't get on
board.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Oh, and by the way, for what should I be holding
myself accountable? I'd love to see your examples of my "legitimizing wackos and
fringe freaks."</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">g</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="v2020@ssl.fastmail.fm" href="mailto:v2020@ssl.fastmail.fm">Saundra
Lund</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 13, 2009 12:19
PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] NYTimes: The
Big Hate</div>
<div><br></div>
<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">That’s just plain
silly – that’s not what the article said at all. Leave it to Mr.
Crabtree to be completely disingenuous in the hope that folks won’t take the
time to read the op-ed piece and will instead have his inane remarks stuck in
their heads as accurate. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">The op-ed piece is
actually quite good because it talks about <gasp> responsibility.
Mr. Crabtree is all for responsibility except when it means holding himself
accountable. On a much smaller scale, of course, Mr. Crabtree is a prime
example of the point of the op-ed piece: legitimizing wackos &
fringe freaks -- be they the radical right or the radical left -- is
dangerous.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Sadly, the
currently leaderless Party of No seems to have forgotten this factoid, which
perhaps is a significant factor for why they are currently leaderless.
Certainly, my respectable conservative friends for the most part have bailed
from the GOP in large part because of the current politics of desperation of
“embracing the fringe freaks” while abandoning the ideals the party has stood
for. Some are still hanging in there hoping & working for
change, and for the sake of this nation, I hope they are successful and that
it happens soon. The hate- and fear-mongering path the party has sold
out to is disgraceful and dangerous. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Saundra
Lund<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Moscow,
ID<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">The
only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">~
Edmund Burke<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">*****
Original material contained herein is Copyright 2009 through life plus 70
years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
author.*****<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
<a href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a> [<a href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>g. crabtree<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 13, 2009 11:43
AM<br><b>To:</b> Joe Campbell; Moscow Vision 2020<br><b>Subject:</b> Re:
[Vision2020] NYTimes: The Big Hate<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Okey Dokey, you and
Krugman believe that people who watch FOX news, occasionally listen to
Limbaugh, Beck, or Hannity, are a recently returned vet, a conservative or a
RNC member are murderous terrorists. Whats your plan for dealing with
this calamity? Lets hear about how you and all of the forces of truth and
light plan on dealing with this unfortunate turn of events. This ought to be a
hoot!</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">g</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">----- Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <a title="philosopher.joe@gmail.com" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe
Campbell</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Moscow
Vision 2020</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Saturday, June
13, 2009 7:51 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> [Vision2020]
NYTimes: The Big Hate<o:p></o:p></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">From The New York Times:<br><br>OP-ED COLUMNIST: The Big
Hate<o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="byline">
<p class="MsoNormal">By <a href="http://topics.nytimes.com/top/opinion/editorialsandoped/oped/columnists/paulkrugman/index.html?inline=nyt-per">PAUL
KRUGMAN</a><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br><br>The rise of right-wing extremism is being
systematically fed by the conservative media and political
establishment....<br><br><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/12/opinion/12krugman.html"><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/12/opinion/12krugman.html">http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/12/opinion/12krugman.html</a></a><br><br>Get
The New York Times on your iPhone for free by visiting <a href="http://nytimes.com/iphoneinstaller"><a href="http://nytimes.com/iphoneinstaller">http://nytimes.com/iphoneinstaller</a></a><o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br><br>Joe Campbell<o:p></o:p></p></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align="center">
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