On this issue, I'm going to side with Gary on the numbers. Kinsey had some serious methodological issues, and as his fame (or, at the time, I guess you'd have called it notoriety) grew, the number of respondents that intentionally sought him out because they had a particular sociological axe to grind also grew. Exclusively gay and lesbian Americans are a relatively small minority; a small minority that should not be denied any particular rights any more than Laotian immigrants should be denied any particular rights.<br>
<br>-- ACS<br><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 5:13 PM, g. crabtree <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Funny. Your ursine pal quotes from the same study I
cited (The Social Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United
States - Laumann, Gagnon, Michael, Michaels) as well as the hugely
discredited Kinsey report in a failed attempt to bear up his spurious
assertion of 10% of America's population being gay and yet you find my
numbers...curious. Could it be that Yogi's numbers "look better" because
they more closely match up with your preconceived notions?</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div><font color="#888888">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">g</font></div></font><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">----- Original Message ----- </font>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">From: "Joe Campbell" <</font><a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank"><font size="2" face="Arial">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</font></a><font size="2" face="Arial">></font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">To: <</font><a href="mailto:bear@moscow.com" target="_blank"><font size="2" face="Arial">bear@moscow.com</font></a><font size="2" face="Arial">></font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Cc: "g. crabtree" <</font><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank"><font size="2" face="Arial">jampot@roadrunner.com</font></a><font size="2" face="Arial">>;
<</font><a href="mailto:bear@moscow.com" target="_blank"><font size="2" face="Arial">bear@moscow.com</font></a><font size="2" face="Arial">>; "Tom Hansen"
<</font><a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank"><font size="2" face="Arial">thansen@moscow.com</font></a><font size="2" face="Arial">>; "Moscow Vision
2020" <</font><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank"><font size="2" face="Arial">vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><font size="2" face="Arial">></font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 8:02 AM</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Air Force Boots Top
Aviator</font></div></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br><font size="2"></font></font></div><font size="2" face="Arial">> This looks better.<br>> <br>> The Crabtree information,
including the citation, is in quotes, <br>> indicating it was lifted
from a website or whatever. I wonder where it <br>> came from.<br>>
<br>> You're right, though, Bear the percentage is irrelevant. <br>>
Discrimination is wrong regardless of the percentage. But the Crabtree
<br>> numbers are ... curious.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Joe
Campbell<br>> <br>> On May 21, 2009, at 7:33 AM, </font><a href="mailto:bear@moscow.com" target="_blank"><font size="2" face="Arial">bear@moscow.com</font></a><font size="2" face="Arial"> wrote:<br>>
<br>>><br>>> I think we are trying to count how many angels can
dance on the head <br>>> of a<br>>> pin, and depending on what
study you use, the numbers vary.<br>>><br>>> The bottom line is,
they have a right to serve, let them!<br>>><br>>> The average ratio
from several studies are that 9.37% of men are<br>>> homosexual and 4.87%
of women are homosexual in the US. The Central<br>>> Intelligence Agency
estimates that there are 149,346,264 men and<br>>> 154,478,382 women in
the US which would statistically equate to <br>>>
13,993,745<br>>> gay men & 7,523,097 lesbians in the US for a total of
just over 21.5<br>>> Million.<br>>><br>>> In 1995, a survey
(The prevalence of homosexual behavior and <br>>> attraction
in<br>>> the United States, the United Kingdom and France: Results of
national<br>>> population-based samples - Sell, Wells, and Wypij) reported
6.2% of <br>>> males<br>>> and 3.6% of females in the United
States report having had sexual <br>>> contact<br>>> with
someone of the same sex in the previous 5 years.<br>>><br>>> A 1994
study (The Social Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices <br>>>
in<br>>> the United States - Laumann, Gagnon, Michael, Michaels)
reported <br>>> that the<br>>> incidence rate of homosexual
desire for men is 7.7% and 7.5% for <br>>>
women.<br>>><br>>> A 1993 study (The Janus Report on Sexual Behavior
- Janus and Janus) <br>>> found<br>>> 9% of men and 5% of
women were involved in frequent or ongoing <br>>>
homosexual<br>>> experiences.<br>>><br>>> A 1990 study
(Homosexuality/Heterosexuality by McWhirter, Sanders, and<br>>> Reinisch)
stated 13.95% of males and 4.25% of females had <br>>> "extensive"
or<br>>> "more than incidental" homosexual
experience.<br>>><br>>> The Indiana University Kinsey Reports
(Sexual Behavior in the Human <br>>> Male -<br>>> Kinsey,
Pomeroy, and Martin/Sexual Behavior in the Human Female - <br>>>
Kinsey,<br>>> Pomeroy, Martin, and Gerhard) reported 10% of males being
more or less<br>>> exclusively homosexual and 2% to 6% of females being
more or less<br>>> exclusively homosexual.<br>>><br>>> ---
<br>>> --- <br>>> --- <br>>> --- <br>>> --- <br>>>
--- <br>>> --- <br>>> --- <br>>> --- <br>>> ---
<br>>> --- <br>>> --- <br>>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>>><br>>>>
Where is this from?<br>>>><br>>>> Joe
Campbell<br>>>><br>>>> On May 21, 2009, at 6:14 AM, "g.
crabtree" <</font><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank"><font size="2" face="Arial">jampot@roadrunner.com</font></a><font size="2" face="Arial">><br>>>> wrote:<br>>>><br>>>>> "1.51% of
the total U.S. population identifies themselves as gay,<br>>>>>
lesbian or bisexual, or 4.3 total million Americans. These
numbers<br>>>>> are based on figures provided by a broad-based
coalition of gay<br>>>>> rights organizations and homosexual
advocacy groups. The primary<br>>>>> source cited was the The
National Health and Social Life Survey<br>>>>> (NHSLS), published in
the book The Social Organization of Sex:<br>>>>> Sexual Practices in
the United States (1994), by Laumann, Gagnon,<br>>>>> Michael and
Michaels. "<br>>>>><br>>>>>
And,<br>>>>><br>>>>> "Referring to the Laumann study,
the gay rights coalition stated<br>>>>> that in the United States
2.8% of males age 18 or older, and 1.4% of<br>>>>> females age 18 or
older are homosexual, gay, lesbian or bisexual. We<br>>>>> have
applied their figures to the 2003 U.S. population
(284,800,000<br>>>>> total population, according to the U.S. Census
Bureau). 0.9% of<br>>>>> women identify themselves as lesbians
(excluding bisexuals), which<br>>>>> equates to 0.32% of total U.S.
population being lesbians. 2 percent<br>>>>> of men identify
themselves as gay (excluding bisexuals), which<br>>>>> equates to
0.7% of total U.S. population being gay men. Source:<br>>>>>
National study published in Laumann, et al., The Social
Organization<br>>>>> of Sex: Sexual Practices in the United States
(1994)"<br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>>
g<br>>>>> ----- Original Message -----<br>>>>> From:
<</font><a href="mailto:bear@moscow.com" target="_blank"><font size="2" face="Arial">bear@moscow.com</font></a><font size="2" face="Arial">><br>>>>> To: "Tom Hansen" <</font><a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank"><font size="2" face="Arial">thansen@moscow.com</font></a><font size="2" face="Arial">><br>
>>>> Cc: "Moscow Vision 2020" <</font><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank"><font size="2" face="Arial">vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><font size="2" face="Arial">><br>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 7:21
PM<br>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Air Force Boots Top
Aviator<br>>>>><br>>>>>>
Tom,<br>>>>>><br>>>>>> Honestly the only way that
we can put a number on it is based on<br>>>>> the
fact<br>>>>>> that a nations military forces reflects the
statistics of that<br>>>>> nation. It<br>>>>>> is
estimated that about 10% of the US population is gay,<br>>>>>
therefore, it<br>>>>>> safe to make the assumption that
some where around 6,000 of those<br>>>>> on
the<br>>>>>> Wall were gay (5, 819.5 for those of you out there
doing the math).<br>>>>>><br>>>>>> Even more
interesting when you look at those numbers based on WW2<br>>>>>
troop<br>>>>>> numbers, and really more revealing when you
consider that there<br>>>>> have been<br>>>>>> 3,465
Medal of Honor winners, resulting in 346 gay Medal of Honor<br>>>>>
winners.<br>>>>>><br>>>>>> I had an old First
Sergeant that used to tell our troops, that one<br>>>>>
in<br>>>>>> three people in America has some sort of
psychological problem. So<br>>>>> in this<br>>>>>>
formation, look to your left, and look to your right, and if
those<br>>>>> two<br>>>>>> guys look OK, it's
YOU!<br>>>>>><br>>>>>><br>>>>>><br>>>>>><br>>>>>><br>>>>>><br>>>>>><br>>>>>><br>>>>>>>
I have asked this question before, and it bears repeating
again<br>>>>> coupled<br>>>>>>> with serious
concern.<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>> There are
58,195 names on the Vietnam Memorial
Wall.<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>> How many, would
you estimate, belong to gay soldiers, sailors,<br>>>>> airmen,
and<br>>>>>>>
marines?<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>> Pro
patria,<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>> Tom
Hansen<br>>>>>>> Moscow,
Idaho<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>> "Patriotism is not
a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but <br>>>>>>>
the<br>>>>>>> tranquil and steady dedication of a
lifetime."<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>> -- Adlai E.
Stevenson,
Jr.<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>>
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