Bear --<br><br>Pedantry is one of my specialties. Please ignore me if I'm being pedantic.<br><br>-- ACS <br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 5:42 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bear@moscow.com">bear@moscow.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
Folks,<br>
<br>
<br>
You're missing the point! 1.5 or 15 percent, DOESN'T MATTER, the issue is<br>
gay's in the military, not percentages or who came up with them - THAT<br>
doesn't matter! For arguments sake lets split the difference and call it<br>
somewhere between 1.5 and 10%.<br>
<br>
THE ISSUE is gays serving their country, NOT the statistics or how they<br>
were gathered or by whom!<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
> On this issue, I'm going to side with Gary on the numbers. Kinsey had some<br>
> serious methodological issues, and as his fame (or, at the time, I guess<br>
> you'd have called it notoriety) grew, the number of respondents that<br>
> intentionally sought him out because they had a particular sociological<br>
> axe<br>
> to grind also grew. Exclusively gay and lesbian Americans are a relatively<br>
> small minority; a small minority that should not be denied any particular<br>
> rights any more than Laotian immigrants should be denied any particular<br>
> rights.<br>
><br>
> -- ACS<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 5:13 PM, g. crabtree <<a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Funny. Your ursine pal quotes from the same study I cited (The Social<br>
>> Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States -<br>
>> Laumann,<br>
>> Gagnon, Michael, Michaels) as well as the hugely discredited Kinsey<br>
>> report<br>
>> in a failed attempt to bear up his spurious assertion of 10% of<br>
>> America's<br>
>> population being gay and yet you find my numbers...curious. Could it be<br>
>> that<br>
>> Yogi's numbers "look better" because they more closely match up with<br>
>> your<br>
>> preconceived notions?<br>
>><br>
>> g<br>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Campbell" <<br>
>> <a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> To: <<a href="mailto:bear@moscow.com">bear@moscow.com</a>><br>
>> Cc: "g. crabtree" <<a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>>; <<a href="mailto:bear@moscow.com">bear@moscow.com</a>>; "Tom<br>
>> Hansen"<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>>; "Moscow Vision 2020" <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 8:02 AM<br>
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Air Force Boots Top Aviator<br>
>><br>
>> > This looks better.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > The Crabtree information, including the citation, is in quotes,<br>
>> > indicating it was lifted from a website or whatever. I wonder where it<br>
>> > came from.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > You're right, though, Bear the percentage is irrelevant.<br>
>> > Discrimination is wrong regardless of the percentage. But the Crabtree<br>
>> > numbers are ... curious.<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Joe Campbell<br>
>> ><br>
>> > On May 21, 2009, at 7:33 AM, <a href="mailto:bear@moscow.com">bear@moscow.com</a> wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> I think we are trying to count how many angels can dance on the head<br>
>> >> of a<br>
>> >> pin, and depending on what study you use, the numbers vary.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> The bottom line is, they have a right to serve, let them!<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> The average ratio from several studies are that 9.37% of men are<br>
>> >> homosexual and 4.87% of women are homosexual in the US. The Central<br>
>> >> Intelligence Agency estimates that there are 149,346,264 men and<br>
>> >> 154,478,382 women in the US which would statistically equate to<br>
>> >> 13,993,745<br>
>> >> gay men & 7,523,097 lesbians in the US for a total of just over 21.5<br>
>> >> Million.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> In 1995, a survey (The prevalence of homosexual behavior and<br>
>> >> attraction in<br>
>> >> the United States, the United Kingdom and France: Results of national<br>
>> >> population-based samples - Sell, Wells, and Wypij) reported 6.2% of<br>
>> >> males<br>
>> >> and 3.6% of females in the United States report having had sexual<br>
>> >> contact<br>
>> >> with someone of the same sex in the previous 5 years.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> A 1994 study (The Social Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices<br>
>> >> in<br>
>> >> the United States - Laumann, Gagnon, Michael, Michaels) reported<br>
>> >> that the<br>
>> >> incidence rate of homosexual desire for men is 7.7% and 7.5% for<br>
>> >> women.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> A 1993 study (The Janus Report on Sexual Behavior - Janus and Janus)<br>
>> >> found<br>
>> >> 9% of men and 5% of women were involved in frequent or ongoing<br>
>> >> homosexual<br>
>> >> experiences.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> A 1990 study (Homosexuality/Heterosexuality by McWhirter, Sanders,<br>
>> and<br>
>> >> Reinisch) stated 13.95% of males and 4.25% of females had<br>
>> >> "extensive" or<br>
>> >> "more than incidental" homosexual experience.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> The Indiana University Kinsey Reports (Sexual Behavior in the Human<br>
>> >> Male -<br>
>> >> Kinsey, Pomeroy, and Martin/Sexual Behavior in the Human Female -<br>
>> >> Kinsey,<br>
>> >> Pomeroy, Martin, and Gerhard) reported 10% of males being more or<br>
>> less<br>
>> >> exclusively homosexual and 2% to 6% of females being more or less<br>
>> >> exclusively homosexual.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> ---<br>
>> >> ---<br>
>> >> ---<br>
>> >> ---<br>
>> >> ---<br>
>> >> ---<br>
>> >> ---<br>
>> >> ---<br>
>> >> ---<br>
>> >> ---<br>
>> >> ---<br>
>> >> ---<br>
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>> >><br>
>> >>> Where is this from?<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> Joe Campbell<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> On May 21, 2009, at 6:14 AM, "g. crabtree" <<a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>><br>
>> >>> wrote:<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>>> "1.51% of the total U.S. population identifies themselves as gay,<br>
>> >>>> lesbian or bisexual, or 4.3 total million Americans. These numbers<br>
>> >>>> are based on figures provided by a broad-based coalition of gay<br>
>> >>>> rights organizations and homosexual advocacy groups. The primary<br>
>> >>>> source cited was the The National Health and Social Life Survey<br>
>> >>>> (NHSLS), published in the book The Social Organization of Sex:<br>
>> >>>> Sexual Practices in the United States (1994), by Laumann, Gagnon,<br>
>> >>>> Michael and Michaels. "<br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>> And,<br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>> "Referring to the Laumann study, the gay rights coalition stated<br>
>> >>>> that in the United States 2.8% of males age 18 or older, and 1.4%<br>
>> of<br>
>> >>>> females age 18 or older are homosexual, gay, lesbian or bisexual.<br>
>> We<br>
>> >>>> have applied their figures to the 2003 U.S. population (284,800,000<br>
>> >>>> total population, according to the U.S. Census Bureau). 0.9% of<br>
>> >>>> women identify themselves as lesbians (excluding bisexuals), which<br>
>> >>>> equates to 0.32% of total U.S. population being lesbians. 2 percent<br>
>> >>>> of men identify themselves as gay (excluding bisexuals), which<br>
>> >>>> equates to 0.7% of total U.S. population being gay men. Source:<br>
>> >>>> National study published in Laumann, et al., The Social<br>
>> Organization<br>
>> >>>> of Sex: Sexual Practices in the United States (1994)"<br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>> g<br>
>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----<br>
>> >>>> From: <<a href="mailto:bear@moscow.com">bear@moscow.com</a>><br>
>> >>>> To: "Tom Hansen" <<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>><br>
>> >>>> Cc: "Moscow Vision 2020" <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 7:21 PM<br>
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Air Force Boots Top Aviator<br>
>> >>>><br>
>> >>>>> Tom,<br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>> Honestly the only way that we can put a number on it is based on<br>
>> >>>> the fact<br>
>> >>>>> that a nations military forces reflects the statistics of that<br>
>> >>>> nation. It<br>
>> >>>>> is estimated that about 10% of the US population is gay,<br>
>> >>>> therefore, it<br>
>> >>>>> safe to make the assumption that some where around 6,000 of those<br>
>> >>>> on the<br>
>> >>>>> Wall were gay (5, 819.5 for those of you out there doing the<br>
>> math).<br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>> Even more interesting when you look at those numbers based on WW2<br>
>> >>>> troop<br>
>> >>>>> numbers, and really more revealing when you consider that there<br>
>> >>>> have been<br>
>> >>>>> 3,465 Medal of Honor winners, resulting in 346 gay Medal of Honor<br>
>> >>>> winners.<br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>> I had an old First Sergeant that used to tell our troops, that one<br>
>> >>>> in<br>
>> >>>>> three people in America has some sort of psychological problem. So<br>
>> >>>> in this<br>
>> >>>>> formation, look to your left, and look to your right, and if those<br>
>> >>>> two<br>
>> >>>>> guys look OK, it's YOU!<br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>>> I have asked this question before, and it bears repeating again<br>
>> >>>> coupled<br>
>> >>>>>> with serious concern.<br>
>> >>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>> There are 58,195 names on the Vietnam Memorial Wall.<br>
>> >>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>> How many, would you estimate, belong to gay soldiers, sailors,<br>
>> >>>> airmen, and<br>
>> >>>>>> marines?<br>
>> >>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>> Pro patria,<br>
>> >>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>> Tom Hansen<br>
>> >>>>>> Moscow, Idaho<br>
>> >>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>> "Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but<br>
>> >>>>>> the<br>
>> >>>>>> tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime."<br>
>> >>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>> -- Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr.<br>
>> >>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>><br>
>> >>>>>> =======================================================<br>
>> >>>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>
>> >>>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>
>> >>>>>> <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>
</div></div>>> >>>>>> mailto:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a> <<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
<div class="im">>> >>>>>> =======================================================<br>
>> >>>>>><br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>>> =======================================================<br>
>> >>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>
>> >>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>
>> >>>>> <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>
</div>>> >>>>> mailto:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a> <<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
<div class="im">>> >>>>> =======================================================<br>
>> >>>>><br>
>> >>>> =======================================================<br>
>> >>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>
>> >>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>
>> >>>> <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>
</div>>> >>>> mailto:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a> <<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5">>> >>>> =======================================================<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>> =======================================================<br>
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>
>> <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>
>> mailto:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
>> =======================================================<br>
>><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>