<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:01 AM, lfalen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com">lfalen@turbonet.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Lets turn this around a bit.<br>
Do you and Sunil believe we are a nation of laws? The Civil Rights Movement was built on civil disobedience. Do you think that was wrong and that those discrimination laws should have been obeyed? </blockquote><div><br>You are seriously comparing torture ordered by high government officials -- the people in power; the people with the ability to change the law -- to the Civil Rights movement. I'm not going to argue. I'm just going to point it out. <br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">My nephew was killed by two guys at Lowell hot Springs, near Banks. This was premeditated murder. His body was left to scald in the hot water. They were sentenced to 10 years, but served less than five. Do you think that Miller should serve a life sentence unless it is proven that he killed someone? </blockquote>
<div><br>I think Miller should serve whatever sentence is required to deter other American generals from authorizing torture. That's a job for other judges; other juries. But it is a job for judges and juries and prosecutors, not a matter to be dismissed.<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">I do not think very much of throwing people up against walls. there should be better ways than what might cause physical damage. Sleep deprivation is sometimes used by the police. Do you want to send all police officers that have used this technique to jail for life?. I think that this technique might be applicable in some cases, but should be used with caution, since prolonged sleep deprivation can sometimes bring on epileptic seizures. </blockquote>
<div><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">I have not heard you or Sunil voice any concern for those that might be killed. Instead you seem to be only concerned with the welfare of those who want to murder us. I find this disturbing. </blockquote>
<div><br>It's not about them. It's about us. They are murderers and lunatics. We are a democracy. And our national compact means that our priority is not to be safe but to be free: to actualize the rights that our founders believed belonged to all people, not just Americans. Our founders realized that doing so would exact a price: the suffering of our soldiers and civilians for the cause of liberty. We accepted that bargain. <br>
<br>That bargain could be renegotiated. We could change the Constitution, repeal our internal laws against torture, and withdraw from the Geneva Convention and the U.N. Convention Against Torture. We would be a different country -- a country where I could not be a patriot -- but torture would be legal. The American people, though, would never accept that new bargain; that, however we've betrayed our principles in the past. We would never accept that shame if forced to face it in the light of day -- which is why the Bush Administration was forced to conduct torture in secret, and against all the relevant laws.<br>
<br>You also tell me that this is a different time, a different enemy, and a different war. It is: a much less dangerous time, a much less competent enemy, and a much less deadly war. In the Cold War, we faced down an enemy armed with enough nuclear weapons to annihilate the whole world without an official policy of torture. We won. In World War II, we faced down suicidal fanatics backed with the power of a modern industrial state without an official policy of torture. We won. In the Civil War, we faced down a massive armed insurrection, treasonous infiltrators, and massive campaigns of sabotage without an official policy of torture. We won.<br>
<br>Today, the enemy has no state, no army, no money, no industrial base, and few recruits. Their organizational structure is full of schizophrenics like Zacharais Moussaui and Abu Zubaydah. Since 2000, fewer Americans have died to their attacks than have died to allergic reactions. Unlike the Soviets or Nazis, their belief that they can conquer the world is delusional. Their best plan, 9/11, collapsed 3/4 of the way through its execution due to the bravery of a few unarmed Americans. Since then, their organizational capacity has been reduced to a couple Mickey Mouse attacks in Europe, carried out by disaffected immigrants. <br>
<br>This is the great enemy? This is where we throw away Anglo-English principles dating from the 1100s? This is where we spend our national prestige? This is why you want us to renegotiate our commitment to liberty? It's cowardice, and nothing less.<br>
<br>-- ACS<br></div></div>