<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;">This right here is the crux of the debate. Morality / values vs. expediency. <br><br>Paul<br><br>--- On <b>Tue, 4/28/09, lfalen <i><lfalen@turbonet.com></i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>From: lfalen <lfalen@turbonet.com><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Habeas Corpus at Bagram<br>To: "Andreas Schou" <ophite@gmail.com><br>Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020@moscow.com><br>Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2009, 12:19 PM<br><br><div class="plainMail">Andreas<br>Get off the morality bullshit. Anyone that claims that concern for some temporary discomfort is a higher morality than saving lives is lacking in basic reasoning or logic. I do not like deliberately making some ome uncomfortable either and am opposed to any mistreatment that may have occurred in the
FBI report or what happened at Abu Ghraib. None of this had any thing to due with Security or self defense or in my opinion was authorised by Bush. <br>Roger<br>-----Original message-----<br>From: Andreas Schou <a ymailto="mailto:ophite@gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=ophite@gmail.com">ophite@gmail.com</a><br>Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:57:45 -0700<br>To: lfalen <a ymailto="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com" href="/mc/compose?to=lfalen@turbonet.com">lfalen@turbonet.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Habeas Corpus at Bagram<br><br>> Roger --<br>> <br>> No: just until the cessation of hostilities in the "war on terror." Which,<br>> because it is not a "war" in any meaningful sense, but rather a massive<br>> combined military/law enforcement action, cannot ever end.<br>> <br>> Incidentally, I directed this originally at Gary, but he seems unwilling to<br>> defend torture on its own terms. You, on the other hand, are not half as<br>>
clever (or half as moral; I can't tell which). We did not have an official<br>> policy of torture during WWII, when we were actually faced with destruction<br>> by an opponent of equal strength. In the "War on Terror," we are faced with<br>> an enemy that has killed less than 1/10th the number of Americans that died<br>> at Normandy.<br>> <br>> To resort to barbarism in the face of such a comparatively minor threat is<br>> rank cowardice. You should be ashamed.<br>> <br>> -- ACS<br>> <br>> (Incidentally, Roger: by conceding that waterboarding is torture, you just<br>> conceded that the Bush administration is guilty of a number of crimes. A<br>> single instance of torture, or conspiracy to commit torture, is a federal<br>> crime with a maximum punishment of life imprisonment.)<br>> <br>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 11:12 AM, lfalen <<a ymailto="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com"
href="/mc/compose?to=lfalen@turbonet.com">lfalen@turbonet.com</a>> wrote:<br>> <br>> > I never said that there should be an indefinite suspension of habeas<br>> > corpus. Don't put words in my mouth.<br>> > Roger<br>> > -----Original message-----<br>> > From: Andreas Schou <a ymailto="mailto:ophite@gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=ophite@gmail.com">ophite@gmail.com</a><br>> > Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:03:08 -0700<br>> > To: lfalen <a ymailto="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com" href="/mc/compose?to=lfalen@turbonet.com">lfalen@turbonet.com</a><br>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Habeas Corpus at Bagram<br>> ><br>> > > It was during a time of armed insurrection, as specified in the<br>> > > Constitution. The United States was rife with traitors, both to our<br>> > > principles and to our government. He did what was necessary. Even<br>> > accepting<br>> > > the
counterfactual that 9/11 was an armed insurrection, the Constitution<br>> > > cannot possibly permit the indefinite suspension of habeas corpus during<br>> > a<br>> > > permanent war.<br>> > ><br>> > > -- ACS<br>> > ><br>> > > On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 10:36 AM, lfalen <<a ymailto="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com" href="/mc/compose?to=lfalen@turbonet.com">lfalen@turbonet.com</a>> wrote:<br>> > ><br>> > > > Joe<br>> > > > What do you think os Lincoln's suspension of Habeas Corpus?<br>> > > > Roger<br>> > > > -----Original message-----<br>> > > > From: Joe Campbell <a ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>> > > > Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:05:13 -0800<br>> > > > To: Andreas Schou <a ymailto="mailto:ophite@gmail.com"
href="/mc/compose?to=ophite@gmail.com">ophite@gmail.com</a><br>> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Habeas Corpus at Bagram<br>> > > ><br>> > > > > FYI Hilary Bok is a philosopher. Works in free will, which is the<br>> > same<br>> > > > > area I work in.<br>> > > > ><br>> > > > > Joe Campbell<br>> > > > ><br>> > > > > On Feb 24, 2009, at 7:35 PM, Andreas Schou <<a ymailto="mailto:ophite@gmail.com" href="/mc/compose?to=ophite@gmail.com">ophite@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>> > > > ><br>> > > > > > Hilary Bok at the Washington Monthly has the best piece I've seen<br>> > > > > > about the habeas corpus rights of prisoners at Bagram. The previous<br>> > > > > > administration's too-clever-by-half reading of U.S. v. Eisentrager<br>> > > > > > (the case upon
which the detention regime at Guantanamo) has led to<br>> > > > > > some serious, and intentional, confusion of the respective<br>> > > > > > jurisdictions of our military and federal courts.<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > <a href="http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/" target="_blank">http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/</a><br>> > > > > > 2009_02/017017.php<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > This article pretty much sums up what I think about Bagram.<br>> > > > > ><br>> > > > > > -- ACS<br>> > > > > > =======================================================<br>> > > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> > > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> > > >
> > <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>> > > > > > mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" href="/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>> > > > > > =======================================================<br>> > > > ><br>> > > > ><br>> > > ><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> ><br>> <br>> <br><br>=======================================================<br> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br> <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a>
<br> mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" href="/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>=======================================================<br></div></blockquote></td></tr></table>