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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><EM>"What I am hoping to see, sooner than later is
that the people who AUTHORIZED and gave the legal opinions that torture is
admissible are brought before a court for prosecutions... IF they ( Bush,
Cheney, Rice, Ashcroft, Gonzales et al) didn't break any laws,
wouldn't<BR>they be acquitted?"</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If that's to be the case, I would have to assume
that you would want Nancy Pelosi added to the afore mentioned group in the dock.
Reports </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm seeing have her and other key democrat
congresspeople being fully briefed on what was going on as early as 2002. While
we're at it lets throw in Bill Clinton for kicking off the whole extraordinary
rendition program back in 1995.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The idea of rounding up a few key Bush
administration officials and making them into raw meat to satisfy the howling of
the huffington/kos mob reeks of hypocrisy and partisanship.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:bear@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>bear@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>;
<</FONT><A href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>godshatter@yahoo.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>;
<</FONT><A href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>lfalen@turbonet.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; <</FONT><A
href="mailto:bear@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>bear@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; <</FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:42 PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations
-As ye sow, so shall you</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>> Gary,<BR>> <BR>> I see your point, and no one would say
putting a caterpillar in the cell would be torture,<BR>> and <BR>> I've
got to think that not having the weekend sleep in wouldn't be either. But what
about<BR>> 183 <BR>> water boardings of one person? 83 times for
another?<BR>> <BR>> One of the keys to what you said how ever is the term
"unlawful combatant". An unlawful <BR>> combatant or unprivileged
combatant/belligerent is a civilian who directly engages in<BR>> armed
<BR>> conflict in violation of International Humanitarian Law (IHL) and may
be detained or<BR>> prosecuted <BR>> under the domestic law of the
detaining state for such action. Now, that is the law as<BR>> agreed to
<BR>> under the International Committee of the Red Cross. Now, the detention
and prosecution<BR>> under <BR>> domestic law, in this case US law gets to
be interesting. <BR>> <BR>> Is it the policy under domestic US laws to
treat prisoners like this? Forget the Sunni or<BR>> Shiites, <BR>> what
about the guy from Twin Falls? IF it is ok to do this to under domestic
law, it's ok<BR>> to do it <BR>> to ANYONE that is detained and
prosecuted.<BR>> <BR>> And as far as a "gaggle of surly Sunni's and snippy
Shiites anxious to be released and<BR>> take a <BR>> second shot at
killing and maiming Americans", are we talking about them taking shots
in<BR>> the <BR>> US, our country or over in Iraq or Afghanistan - THEIR
country? I'm sure the colonial<BR>> terrorists <BR>> that were killing
British soldiers in Massachusetts felt the same way as the Iraqi and<BR>>
Afghani <BR>> combatants feel today.<BR>> <BR>> What I am hoping to
see, sooner than later is that the people who AUTHORIZED and gave the <BR>>
legal opinions that torture is admissible are brought before a court for
prosecutions. <BR>> Remember, one of the most serious parts of the post World
War Two prosecutions was the<BR>> nazi <BR>> judges and prosecutors,the
people that told Hitler that he wasn't breaking any laws!<BR>> <BR>> IF
they ( Bush, Cheney, Rice, Aschcroft, Gonzales et al) didn't break any
laws, wouldn't<BR>> they be <BR>> acquitted? Or isn't there any faith in
the system that says torture is ok? And at least<BR>> they would <BR>> be
getting trials, something denied the majority of the captives at Guantánamo
Bay<BR>> Detention <BR>> Camp.<BR>> <BR>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>
This seems to me to be a fair question. If it's considered torture to put a
<BR>>> guy in a box with a caterpillar, what about a cell with a fellow
terrorist? <BR>>> It's really just a matter of degree. If depriving an
unlawful combatant of <BR>>> sleep is torture what about not
allowing the poor dears to sleep in on the <BR>>> weekends? Stress
positions criminal? What about not providing orthopedic <BR>>> queen sized
beds and massaging barcoloungers? Pouring water on their ugly <BR>>> mugs
too harsh? What about insisting that the prisoners take a monthly <BR>>>
shower whether they need it of not?<BR>>> <BR>>> Rape as
torture? To be sure although I'll take it over having my skin <BR>>>
removed with eyebrow tweezers, being lowered into a chipper shredder up to
<BR>>> my navel, being beaten with rods till the number of broken bones
exceeds <BR>>> ones I.Q. (I know, I know a few fingers and a rib in
my particular case) a <BR>>> week or two of ground glass suppers and
battery acid enemas or being rubbed <BR>>> in fat and roasted till your so
overcooked the New York Times food critic <BR>>> would send you back to
the chef and write a scathing review in the Sunday <BR>>> style
edition.<BR>>> <BR>>> Who ever remarked that there ought to be a
line over which we do not go is <BR>>> correct. There is a difference
between a harsh interrogation and torture. In <BR>>> my opinion we did a
pretty fine job of walking that line. Had the <BR>>> interrogators indeed
been sadistic torturers and not just asking poignant <BR>>> questions
firmly we should be seeing a trail of corpses and cripples, not a <BR>>>
gaggle of surly Sunni's and snippy Shiites anxious to be released and take a
<BR>>> second shot at killing and maiming Americans. It's my understanding
that the <BR>>> interrogation of these criminals resulted in good
information and saved <BR>>> lives and the men who brought us that result
should be commended, not <BR>>> condemned.<BR>>> <BR>>>
g<BR>>> <BR>>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>> From:
<</FONT><A href="mailto:bear@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>bear@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>>> To:
"Paul Rumelhart" <</FONT><A href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>godshatter@yahoo.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>;
"lfalen" <</FONT><A href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>lfalen@turbonet.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; <BR>>>
<</FONT><A href="mailto:bear@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>bear@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; <</FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>>>
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:28 PM<BR>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
"Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you<BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> > Roger,<BR>>> ><BR>>> > WHERE do you draw the
line as far as "technique" is concerned?<BR>>> > IF the alleged
terrorist is a woman, is it ok to rape her till she tells <BR>>> > us
about the plot<BR>>> > to bomb<BR>>> > LA?<BR>>> > Or
a man for that matter?<BR>>> ><BR>>> > AND remember, IF it's
justified for the US to do it, it is justified for <BR>>> > everyone
else<BR>>> > too!<BR>>> ><BR>>> > The reason it's
referred to as a "slippery slope" is that the only <BR>>> > direction
to go is DOWN<BR>>> > HILL!<BR>>> ><BR>>> >
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>
--<BR>>> ><BR>>> >> That's an extremely dangerous point of
view, Roger. How far do you take<BR>>> >> it? It's
possible that daily random inspections of citizen's houses by<BR>>>
>> SWAT teams could yield some data. Or that torturing every Muslim
in<BR>>> >> America would also yield results. The Internet
could be used to pass<BR>>> >> encrypted information between
terrorist cells, maybe it should be shut<BR>>> >> down?
Perhaps a "shoot-on-sight" curfew would help make us safer from<BR>>>
>> the threat of terrorism?<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> I'm
tired of this country being run by a bunch of cowards. Draw a
moral<BR>>> >> line in the sand, and stick to it. Do what is
right because it is<BR>>> >> right, not because it is
expedient.<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> Paul<BR>>>
>><BR>>> >><BR>>> >> lfalen wrote:<BR>>>
>> > Bear<BR>>> >> > You are wrong on this.<BR>>>
>> > Because a confession was extracted fron this lady does not mean
that <BR>>> >> > she was a spy.<BR>>> > What<BR>>>
> we may have done at GITMO had no bearing on how Iran conducts <BR>>>
> interrogations. They would<BR>>> > use brutal tactics no matter
what we do.<BR>>> >> > As to our security I believe the
following:<BR>>> >> > 1. If an interrogator thinks that there is
good reason to believe a <BR>>> >> > detainee has<BR>>>
> information of an impending attack and does not use what ever means is
<BR>>> > necessary to obtain<BR>>> > that information
and<BR>>> >> > 2 There is a subsequent attack that results in a
loss of life.then<BR>>> >> > 3. Those interrogators should be
prosecuted for dereliction of duty.<BR>>> >> > Former CIA
Director Casey said that over 50% of the valid information <BR>>> >>
> about al-Quaeda<BR>>> > came from detainees and that an attack on
L.A was thwarted by information <BR>>> > obtained from<BR>>> >
KSM.<BR>>> >> > Roger<BR>>> >> ><BR>>>
>> > -----Original message-----<BR>>> >> > From:
</FONT><A href="mailto:bear@moscow.cotwo"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>bear@moscow.cotwo</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2> year period?
How about ten years?m<BR>>> >> > Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:50:18
-0700<BR>>> >> > To: </FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>>>
>> > Subject: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall
you <BR>>> >> > reep<BR>>> >> ><BR>>>
>> ><BR>>> >> >> Well, what we have said is fine, is
now coming back to bite us.<BR>>> >> >><BR>>> >>
>> American-Iranian journalist Roxana Saberi was sentenced to
eight <BR>>> >> >> years' jail on<BR>>> >
Saturday<BR>>> >> >> after<BR>>> >> >> being
convicted in a secret trial of spying for the United States. Her <BR>>>
>> >> Iranian-born<BR>>> >> >> father,
Reza<BR>>> >> >> Saberi, says she may have been tricked into a
confession, believing <BR>>> >> >> she would be<BR>>>
> released<BR>>> >> >> if<BR>>> >> >> she
co-operated with the authorities. He said his daughter was so <BR>>>
>> >> depressed by her<BR>>> >> >> sentence
-<BR>>> >> >> the harshest ever given to a dual national on
security charges in <BR>>> >> >> Iran - that she
is<BR>>> >> >> threatening<BR>>> >> >> to go
on hunger strike.<BR>>> >> >><BR>>> >> >>
Will they force feed her like we have force fed the prisoners at <BR>>>
>> >> GuantĂ¡namo Bay<BR>>> > Detention<BR>>>
>> >> Camp when they have gone on hunger strikes? IF they do, what
makes us <BR>>> >> >> think we have a<BR>>> >>
>> right<BR>>> >> >> to object?<BR>>> >>
>><BR>>> >> >> Did they use enhanced interrogation
techniques to discover that she <BR>>> >> >> was a spy?
And<BR>>> >> >> remember,<BR>>> >> >> she
was arrested for SPYING. If she was in the United States could we <BR>>>
>> >> have sued<BR>>> > enhanced<BR>>> >>
>> interrogation techniques? US Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia
<BR>>> >> >> said on BBC Radio<BR>>> > 4<BR>>>
>> >> that<BR>>> >> >> since these methods are not
intended to punish they do not violate the <BR>>> >> >>
Eighth<BR>>> > Amendment<BR>>> > to<BR>>> >>
>><BR>>> >> >> the United States Constitution, barring
"cruel and unusual <BR>>> >> >> punishment", and as
such<BR>>> > may<BR>>> ><BR>>> >> >>
not<BR>>> >> >> be unconstitutional.<BR>>> >>
>><BR>>> >> >> Well, we started this dog fight, now we
pay. How do we get back on the <BR>>> >> >> moral
high<BR>>> > ground<BR>>> >> >> where this kind of
behavior from ANY GOVERNMENT is wrong? I believe it <BR>>> >>
>> starts with<BR>>> > the<BR>>> ><BR>>> >>
>> indictment and arrest of George W. Bush et al. Or don't they think
<BR>>> >> >> they'd get a fair<BR>>> >> >>
trial? They<BR>>> >> >> sure as hell would get better
treatment awaiting trial than they gave!<BR>>> >>
>><BR>>> >> >><BR>>> >> >><BR>>>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------<BR>>>
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>> ><BR>>> >> > <BR>>
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