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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>With your very first sentence you once again
mischaracterize what it was I said. I did not concede that the things
you mention took place. Just because you've read something in the huffington
post and/or the new york times and regurgitate it here doesn't make it a
verified fact. You don't know for certain, you were not there, you are electing
to take someone at there word. Show me evidence and I'll concede that those
events occurred and not before.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What I did say was that I did not at any
time defend or encourage those sorts of measures. Period. Your overused
technique for taking what someone actually says and determining what they
<EM>really </EM>mean and what they r<EM>eally</EM> think is tedious and
annoying.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What I have said and what I do think is that
harsh interrogation methods can sometimes be necessary and can produce
useful information. This does not give you license to infer anything
else.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>But Lord knows you almost certainly
will.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ophite@gmail.com href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com">Andreas Schou</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=smith@turbonet.com
href="mailto:smith@turbonet.com">a</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=kjajmix1@msn.com
href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com">keely emerinemix</A> ; <A
title=jampot@roadrunner.com
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</A> ; <A
title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 24, 2009 3:17
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh"
Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Gary --<BR><BR>So, what you're saying is that you concede that
abuses took place; you concede that interrogation techniques like uninsulated
30 and 100 degree temperatures; you concede that the same guy responsible for
Abu Ghraib was responsible for GTMO; you concede that any technique that did
not produce pain "equivalent to death or organ failure" was approved for use
on our GTMO detainees. And you claim that you don't support any of these
things: that these things are torture.<BR><BR>And then, conceding that we did
these things, you nonetheless bang the table and insist that our approach to
interrogation didn't constitute torture. The most charitable interpretation of
this is that you are merely incapable of drawing conclusion. However, having
corresponded with you over the years, I've found that you have a genius for
drawing incorrect and immoral conclusions. <BR><BR>What are the facts as you
believe them to be? Did we waterboard? Did we leave detainees shackled to the
ceiling, stewing in their own shit? How about week-long periods of sleep
deprivation over years of detention? Did we do that? Do you think this is
consistent with our values? Do you think we should be ordering US
servicemen to do this sort of thing? Is that consistent with a duty to protect
the honor of our servicemen and intelligenc officers?<BR>-- ACS<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:32 PM, a <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:smith@turbonet.com"
target=_blank>smith@turbonet.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>You're absolutely right. As a work of pulp
fiction it's right up there with the Left Behind series and any of the vapid
crap produced by Dan Brown.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>By the numbers:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>1. I have at no time tried to justify the abuses in
the FBI report to such as being chained with no access to food, water,
or toilet facilities.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>2. Exposing anyone to low temperatures to the point of
hypothermia (Although one wonders how many US soldiers were treated for the
same thing that night, no "torture" involved)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>3. Sexual abuse of any description.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Pretending that these are my expressed views and then
vigorously taking me to task for them is dishonest in the extreme and is
exactly the sort of thing I have come to expect from Mr. Schou. Playing fast
and loose with the truth has allways been a hallmark of his debate style and
for him to hold himself up as a paragon of moral righteousness is laughable.
I believe that he would do well to climb down off his rustled moral high
horse and respond to what I actually write not what he concocts in his
fevered imagination.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>g</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=kjajmix1@msn.com href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com"
target=_blank>keely emerinemix</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=ophite@gmail.com href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com"
target=_blank>ophite@gmail.com</A> ; <A title=jampot@roadrunner.com
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"
target=_blank>jampot@roadrunner.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Cc:</B>
<A title=vision2020@moscow.com href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Friday, April 24, 2009 11:57 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Vision2020] "Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>This is probably the finest post I've ever read on Vision
2020. <BR><BR>Thanks, Andreas. <BR><BR>Keely<BR><A
href="http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/"
target=_blank>http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/</A><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR>
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:31:27 -0700<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com" target=_blank>ophite@gmail.com</A><BR>To:
<A href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"
target=_blank>jampot@roadrunner.com</A><BR>CC: <A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
"Harsh" Interrogations -As ye sow, so shall you<BR><BR>Gary --<BR><BR>From
the FBI report on abuse at Guantanamo Bay under Geoffrey Miller, the
general later brought in to "Gitmoize" Abu Ghraib: <BR><BR>"<FONT
face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=-1>on several occasions, witness
("W") saw detainees ("ds") in interrogation rooms chained hand and foot in
fetal position to floor w/no chair/ food/water; most urinated or defecated
on selves, and were left there 18, 24 hrs or more. Once, the air
conditioning was so low that the barefoot d was shaking with cold. Another
time, it was off so the unventilated room was over 100 degrees, d was
almost unconscious on floor with a pile of hair next to him (he had
apparently been pulling it out throughout the night). Another time, it was
sweltering hot and loud rap music played - d's hand and foot was chained
and he was in a fetal position on the floor. Upon inquiry, W was told that
interrogators [military contractors] ordered this treatment. Took place in
Delta Camp</FONT>"<BR><BR>The report goes on to substantiate that more
than one detainee (d) was brought into the infirmary with hypothermia
after an interrogation session. Detainees pissing and shitting all over
themselves. Being sexually assaulted by female guards. Forced to stay
awake for longer than the human body can stand. Being partially drowned.
Being stuck in a coffin with what you're told are scorpions.<BR><BR>These
are not conditions you will find any Hilton other than the Hanoi. They are
not on the continuum of acceptable behaviors any more than a knife is on
the continuum of 'comfortable objects' because, like a knife, it's also an
object. These are techniques we reverse-engineered from North Korean
torture techniques in order to create SERE, and then reverse-reverse
engineered in order to create GTMO and the "black sites." This is despite
the fact that we -- as in, our country -- prosecuted Japanese soldiers for
waterboarding, and even Israel, no friend of terrorists, has abandoned it
because it produces bad intelligence. Indeed, if I were just a little more
cynical than I am, I'd say that that's quite the point: we waterboarded
KSM for information on the nonexistent Iraq-al-Qaida connection, and Abu
Zubaydah for information on confabulated terrorist plots he had no reason
to know about.<BR><BR>You're wrong about the facts. You're wrong about the
law. I could go on about that, but I'd just be arguing with the tinny
little noises escaping from the echo chamber you pretend will replace
journalism. I'm waiting with bated breath to find out why you think the
FBI is infiltrated by ACORN or how George Soros is dictating the legal
conclusions of Republican appointees at Foggy Bottom. That's just your
intentional ignorance, plus arrogance, tribalism, and smug
self-satisfaction at your clever turns of phrase. I can tolerate that.
<BR><BR>What gets to me -- why I'm provoked to respond -- is that you're
willing, even eager, to sell out our country's honor in order to soothe
your rank cowardice. Or maybe it makes you feel like a real man to hear
that some punk Afghan teenager with an AK-47 was awake for a week, stewing
in his own shit, shackled to the floor. Whatever the impulse is --
tribalism? sadism? fear? -- it's not anything I recognize as American.
What third-world tinpot dictatorship did you grow up in that you think
this is acceptable?<BR><BR>We consent to abide by certain principles. It's
that common consent that keeps our country from being a collection of
miscellaneous foreigners on someone else's land. I have disagreements with
conservatives about the metes and bounds of those principles, sure. But
here you are, disputing whether America should have principles at
all.<BR><BR>Americans, by which I mean FDR and Eisenhower, Reagan and JFK,
held off the Soviets and Nazi Germany, nations that both posed a dire
existential threat to our country, while banning torture, expanding the
protections of the Geneva Convention, and abandoning the pretense that
it's okay to attack civilian populations. These are tempting tactics. Some
of them work. Torture produces words rather than silence. The Geneva
Convention bans effective tactics for making war. Killing civilians forces
submission. We stepped away from these things. We won. Twice. Over the two
most belligerent, technologically advanced, and staggeringly immoral
nations ever to exist, one armed with enough weapons to destroy the world
several times over.<BR><BR>But then 9/11 made you wet yourself. A crime of
unimaginable scale happened to people in New York City; people whom you
don't even accord the privilege of being called Americans. The crime was
carried out by guys carrying weapons you can buy at Home Depot. Somehow,
that uprooted your sense that America stands for anything. But how deep
were those roots, Gary, that fewer deaths than those caused by the flu
could pull them up?<BR><BR>Our soldiers make a commitment. They tell us
they'll uphold the Constitution. But there's a reciprocal side to that
commtiment: we tell them that they're the good guys; that they're not just
protecting American lives, but American values. That they're fighting for
liberty, mom, and apple pie. Because 9/11 made you wet yourself, you're
asking those soldiers to sit and play Minesweeper while some dumb Afghan
redneck shits his pants in Arctic cold, chained to the ceiling of a
lightless cell. If you tell his President to tell our soldiers to do that,
you've reneged on our commitment to make our soldiers the good guys. Our
moral purpose doesn't come from who we are; it comes from what we
do.<BR><BR>I don't know whether there's going to be a reckoning for the
people that authorized this. But you're the reason there should be: to put
the rudder straight and make people like you -- who actively argues for
torture -- too ashamed to speak up in public. Anything you just said
should be enough to make any decent person drop their beer, walk out of
the room, and go find another locksmith. I'm looking forward to the day
when it is.<BR><BR>
<HR>
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href="http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Storage2_042009"
target=_blank>Check it out.</A> </DIV></DIV>
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