<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>How is the fact that they are "American hating jihadists" an explanation of why the Gitmo gang did what they did? It begs the question, why or how does one become a hateful jihadist?</div><div><br></div><div>Are you telling me our recent actions can't be effective talking points during recrutment? One says: " Look, they have killed these people and what do they have in common? They are Arab, they are Muslim." That is a pretty easy, effective sell.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm not saying the sell isn't false. But does that matter to the explanation? We all know the false is easier to sell than the true.</div><div><br></div><div>So before you say why you think my explanation won't work, tell me your explanation, or why what you've said explains anything.</div><div><br>Joe Campbell</div><div><br>On Feb 25, 2009, at 4:47 PM, "a" <<a href="mailto:smith@turbonet.com">smith@turbonet.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div><span></span></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Heres a list that may be of interest:</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Gitmo prisoners by nationality as of 05 February
2004.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Saudi Arabia…………..160 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Yemen……………………85 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Pakistan………………….82 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Afghanistan……………..80 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Jordan……………………30 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Egypt……………………..30 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Algeria……………………19 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Morocco………………….18 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Kuwait……………………12 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">China…………………….12 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Tajikistan………………..11 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Turkey……………………11 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Britain……………………..9 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Tunisia…………………….8 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Russia……………………..8 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">France……………………..7 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Bahrain…………………….7 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Australia…………………..2 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Canada…………………….2 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Checnya…………………..2 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Uzbekistan………………..2 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Syria……………………….2 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Georgia……………………2 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Sudan………………………2 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Bangladesh……………….1 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Belgium……………………1 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Denmark…………………..1 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Germany…………………..1 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Iraq…………………………1 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Kenya………………………1 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Libya………………………..1 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Mauritania………………….1 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Qatar……………………….1 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Spain……………………….1 </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Sweden…………………….1</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I'm thinkin' that theres precious
little likelyhood that a errant US bomb killed little Timmy terrorist from
Tunisia's little brother. Last I checked we haven't dropped much ordanace on
Saudi Arabia or Yemen and one of our bombs has got to go pretty wide
to have hit Algeria or China in anything like recent history. The fact of the
matter is that the majority of the prisoners are America hating jihadists plain
and simple and the ridiculous notion that they are seeking revenge for
a loved one is, once again, just an opportunity to cast America in an
unfavorable light while making excuses for criminals.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">g</font></div>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"></font></p>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">----- Original Message ----- </font>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">From: "Garrett Clevenger" <</font><a href="mailto:garrettmc@verizon.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">garrettmc@verizon.net</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">To: "vision 2020" <</font><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">>; "lfalen"
<</font><a href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">lfalen@turbonet.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 3:42
PM</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations
work</font></div></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br><font size="2"></font></font></div><font face="Arial" size="2">> That makes sense, though it was Norwegians killing other Norwegians.
I was thinking more along the line of you imagining being non-American, and
losing a child as a result of a US bomb, which in reality seems to happen quite
frequently in this war of terror.<br>> <br>> I suppose there are some who
can forgive easily, but as most people would imagine, that would be incredibly
difficult. If I were an Iraqi, and my child was killed by a US soldier, I'd be
pretty pissed. Then again, I'd be pretty pissed if the death were caused by any
militant, regardless of their nationality, or their agenda. I suppose that's why
vengeance, whether between the Hatfields and McCoys, Israelis and Palestinians,
or whomever, seems to perpetuate itself. Somebody has to break the cycle and
forgive, and that probably takes more courage and strength than most mere
mortals can muster...<br>> <br>> gclev<br>> <br>> <br>> --- On
Wed, 2/25/09, lfalen <</font><a href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">lfalen@turbonet.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">>
wrote:<br>> <br>>> From: lfalen <</font><a href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">lfalen@turbonet.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work<br>>> To: </font><a href="mailto:garrettmc@verizon.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">garrettmc@verizon.net</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">, "vision 2020"
<</font><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>>
Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 11:53 AM<br>>> That all depend on the
circumstances. If it were unprovoked<br>>> and served no perpose, I would
be mad. If it was an accident<br>>> or served a higher purpose I
would forgive. For instances,<br>>> during the second world war a
norwegian team blew up a ship<br>>> containing a shipment of heavy water,
that was being shipped<br>>> to Bavaria for the development of an A-bomb.
They knew that<br>>> there were Norwegian civilian women and children on
board<br>>> and that there was no way to warn them. They blew it
up<br>>> anyway which prevented the Germans from developing
the<br>>> A-bomb. They were still heros to the Norwegians.<br>>>
Roger<br>>> -----Original message-----<br>>> From: Garrett Clevenger
</font><a href="mailto:garrettmc@verizon.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">garrettmc@verizon.net</font></a><br><font face="Arial" size="2">>>
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:16:02 -0800<br>>> To: vision 2020 </font><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">,
lfalen<br>>> </font><a href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">lfalen@turbonet.com</font></a><br><font face="Arial" size="2">>>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work<br>>> <br>>>
> Roger,<br>>> > <br>>> > I believe with a little bit of
effort, we're all<br>>> capable of empathy. I think that's important
to<br>>> understand motives of people we consider our enemy.<br>>>
> <br>>> > So if you wouldn't mind, could you please tell
me<br>>> how you would feel if you lived in a country where
your<br>>> child died as a result of a US bomb dropped on their
head?<br>>> Would you be able to forgive, or would you be mad as
hell?<br>>> > <br>>> > Thank you,<br>>> >
<br>>> > Garrett<br>>> > <br>>> > <br>>> >
<br>>> > --- On Tue, 2/24/09, lfalen<br>>> <</font><a href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">lfalen@turbonet.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">>
wrote:<br>>> > <br>>> > > From: lfalen <</font><a href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">lfalen@turbonet.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations<br>>>
work<br>>> > > To: "g. crabtree"<br>>> <</font><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">jampot@roadrunner.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">>, </font><a href="mailto:garrettmc@verizon.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">garrettmc@verizon.net</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">,<br>>>
"vision 2020" <</font><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">>,<br>>>
"Sunil Ramalingam"<br>>> <</font><a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>> > > Date: Tuesday, February 24, 2009, 1:59
PM<br>>> > > Thanks Gary<br>>> > > This was so far off
the deep end, I was not<br>>> going to even<br>>> > >
reply to it.<br>>> > > Roger<br>>> > > -----Original
message-----<br>>> > > From: "g. crabtree"<br>>> </font><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">jampot@roadrunner.com</font></a><br><font face="Arial" size="2">>> >
> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 20:09:35 -0800<br>>> > > To: </font><a href="mailto:garrettmc@verizon.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">garrettmc@verizon.net</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">,
"vision<br>>> 2020"<br>>> > > </font><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">,
"Sunil<br>>> Ramalingam"<br>>> > > </font><a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</font></a><br><font face="Arial" size="2">>> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane
interrogations<br>>> work<br>>> > > <br>>> > >
> "Is it so hard for you to admit that<br>>> there is a<br>>>
> > possibility that US policy<br>>> > > > has indeed
created the very terrorists we<br>>> are trying<br>>> > > to
destroy? And I'm<br>>> > > > not talking about because they hate
our<br>>> freedom or<br>>> > > values, but because
we<br>>> > > > have killed innocents as well..."<br>>> >
> > <br>>> > > > If I believed for one minute that it
were<br>>> true I<br>>> > > wouldn't. I believe that
<br>>> > > > the enemy<br>>> > > > we are at war
with does in fact hate our<br>>> freedoms and<br>>> > > values
and resents its <br>>> > > > own<br>>> > > > lack
stature in the world, particularly in<br>>> light of<br>>> > >
what it sees as its <br>>> > > > former glory.<br>>> >
> > <br>>> > > > If, as you claim, the terrorism we
face<br>>> today is<br>>> > > brought about by the
<br>>> > > > innocents<br>>> > > > who have died
as a by product of US actions<br>>> why do we<br>>> > > see no
North American <br>>> > > > indig<br>>> > > >
terrorism? After WW I & II did we endure<br>>> a rash of<br>>>
> > Teutonic terrorism? <br>>> > > > Radical
Shinto<br>>> > > > terrorism? Vietnamese terrorism? Do
you<br>>> contend that<br>>> > > no innocents were
<br>>> > > > inadvertently<br>>> > > > killed
during these conflicts? What is the<br>>> difference<br>>> > >
between then and now, <br>>> > > > them and<br>>> > >
> our current foes? Why did our actions then<br>>> not give<br>>>
> > rise to the same <br>>> > > > terrorism we see
now?<br>>> > > > <br>>> > > > If this problem
truly is all about<br>>> "American<br>>> > > empire" why do
bombs go off in <br>>> > > > night clubs<br>>> > >
> in Bali and subways in Spain? Why riots in<br>>> France,<br>>>
> > murders in the <br>>> > > > Netherlands.
European<br>>> > > > tourists murdered and maimed in Cairo.
China<br>>> is<br>>> > > experiencing problems with a
<br>>> > > > certain<br>>> > > > belligerent
religious minority. Even the UK,<br>>> a country<br>>> > >
that bends over <br>>> > > > backward to appease its<br>>>
> > > malcontents is experiencing extreme unrest.<br>>> > >
> <br>>> > > > The inescapable conclusion a rational
person<br>>> will come<br>>> > > to is that militant
<br>>> > > > Islam and<br>>> > > > wahabaism are
the common denominator and I<br>>> firmly<br>>> > > believe
that you can offer <br>>> > > > up all<br>>> > > >
the maudlin mea culpas and a truck load of<br>>> tearful<br>>> >
> apologies and it won't <br>>> > > > reduce the<br>>>
> > > terrorism one little bit. Even if we were to<br>>>
attempt<br>>> > > to placate them by <br>>> > > >
joining in with<br>>> > > > their unconscionable pogrom to
eradicate<br>>> Jews, their<br>>> > > goodwill (the aftermath
<br>>> > > > in Bosnia being a shining<br>>> > > >
example of undying Islamic gratitude) would<br>>> only last<br>>>
> > until their goal had <br>>> > > > been met and we
would<br>>> > > > be back to the status quo of
submit,<br>>> convert, or die.<br>>> > > > <br>>>
> > > I, Personally, refuse to apologize and<br>>> I'm not
to<br>>> > > wild about submission,<br>>> > > >
conversion is out of the question, and when<br>>> it comes<br>>>
> > to death I figure <br>>> > > > better<br>>> >
> > them then me. Call me crazy.<br>>> > > > <br>>>
> > > As-sallamu aleykum!<br>>> > > > g<br>>> >
> > <br>>> > > > ----- Original Message ----- <br>>>
> > > From: "Garrett Clevenger"<br>>> > > <</font><a href="mailto:garrettmc@verizon.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">garrettmc@verizon.net</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>>
> > > To: "vision 2020"<br>>> > > <</font><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">>;
"Sunil<br>>> Ramalingam" <br>>> > > > <</font><a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">>;<br>>> "g.<br>>> > > crabtree" <</font><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">jampot@roadrunner.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>>
> > > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:18 AM<br>>> > >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane<br>>> interrogations
work<br>>> > > > <br>>> > > > <br>>> >
> > > You are correct, g, there are<br>>> exceptions to
any<br>>> > > rule. If someone were <br>>> > > > >
pointing a gun at someone I love, I<br>>> wouldn't<br>>> > >
hesitate to do what is <br>>> > > > > necessary to insure
their survival.<br>>> Yes, there<br>>> > > are bad people who
probably <br>>> > > > > should be culled out.<br>>> >
> > ><br>>> > > > > Unfortunately, national defense
does<br>>> require the<br>>> > > use of the same force in
<br>>> > > > > certain circumstances. As I didn't<br>>>
want to<br>>> > > subject this list to more <br>>> > >
> > cataloging than I've already<br>>> inputed, I<br>>> >
> suppose my lack of specifics may <br>>> > > > > lead some
to believe I believe<br>>> otherwise. In your<br>>> > >
wisdom, you point out <br>>> > > > > that my general argument
is not<br>>> universal.<br>>> > > > ><br>>> >
> > > That's different than preemptively<br>>> using
such<br>>> > > force half way around the <br>>> > > >
> world based on false pretenses,<br>>> particularly when<br>>>
> > that argument can be <br>>> > > > > used by the
other side to strike first<br>>> as well.<br>>> > > >
><br>>> > > > > The fact is, not only do we
share<br>>> similar<br>>> > > justification with the other
<br>>> > > > > side, the US is the one who has
spent<br>>> billions<br>>> > > more $$$, killed a lot more
<br>>> > > > > people and caused way more
destruction<br>>> than we<br>>> > > have received, while
<br>>> > > > > threatening our children's future<br>>>
with not<br>>> > > only the financial debt they'll <br>>> >
> > > incur, but the added seeds of<br>>> resentment
that<br>>> > > surely will keep the spiral <br>>> > >
> > rolling indefinitely.<br>>> > > > ><br>>> >
> > > I hate calling that a war, because wars<br>>> > >
eventually end.<br>>> > > > ><br>>> > > > >
Is it so hard for you to admit that<br>>> there is a<br>>> > >
possibility that US policy <br>>> > > > > has indeed created
the very terrorists<br>>> we are<br>>> > > trying to destroy?
And I'm <br>>> > > > > not talking about because they hate
our<br>>> freedom<br>>> > > or values, but because we
<br>>> > > > > have killed innocents as well...<br>>>
> > > ><br>>> > > > > gclev<br>>> > >
> ><br>>> > > > > --- On Mon, 2/23/09, g.
crabtree<br>>> > > <</font><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">jampot@roadrunner.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">>
wrote:<br>>> > > > ><br>>> > > > >> From:
g. crabtree<br>>> > > <</font><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">jampot@roadrunner.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>>
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane<br>>> > >
interrogations work<br>>> > > > >> To: </font><a href="mailto:garrettmc@verizon.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">garrettmc@verizon.net</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">,<br>>>
"vision<br>>> > > 2020" <</font><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">>,<br>>>
"Sunil <br>>> > > > >> Ramalingam"<br>>> > >
<</font><a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>> > > > >> Date: Monday, February 23,
2009,<br>>> 7:27 AM<br>>> > > > >> The
quote:<br>>> > > > >><br>>> > > > >> "
I imagine most of these acts<br>>> are<br>>> > > >
>> consequences of the American<br>>> Empire
willing<br>>> > > to commit the<br>>> > > >
>> same atrocities."<br>>> > > > >><br>>>
> > > >> I suppose the question is, the same<br>>> as
who,<br>>> > > The Girl<br>>> > > > >> Scouts?
The Red Cross? It seems<br>>> clear to me<br>>> > > that since
the<br>>> > > > >> topic was terrorism and that
among<br>>> the<br>>> > > terrorists in<br>>> > >
> >> question we find the taliban and<br>>> al-qaeda
at<br>>> > > the top of the<br>>> > > > >>
list, there was no need for wild<br>>> speculation<br>>> > >
on my part.<br>>> > > > >><br>>> > > >
>> Moving on, "Anyone willing to<br>>> kill for<br>>> >
> their agenda is<br>>> > > > >> sick and should be
treated. Perhaps<br>>> a<br>>> > > lobotomy would be
the<br>>> > > > >> cure, rather than killing
them<br>>> > > outright?"<br>>> > > >
>><br>>> > > > >> I guess I have to assume
that,<br>>> considering<br>>> > > your moral<br>>> >
> > >> equivalence position that you<br>>> include US
and<br>>> > > coalition<br>>> > > > >> troops
in this group along with law<br>>> > > enforcement
officials<br>>> > > > >> and anyone else who might
be<br>>> willing to use<br>>> > > ultimate<br>>> >
> > >> measures to protect themselves or<br>>> there
loved<br>>> > > ones?<br>>> > > >
>><br>>> > > > >> There's going to be a
dreadful<br>>> dearth of<br>>> > > stimulating<br>>>
> > > >> conversation in your little corner<br>>> of
Hell.<br>>> > > > >><br>>> > > > >>
g<br>>> > > > >><br>>> > > >
>><br>>> > > > >><br>>> > > >
>><br>>> > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
<br>>> > > > >> From: "Garrett Clevenger"<br>>> >
> > >> <</font><a href="mailto:garrettmc@verizon.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">garrettmc@verizon.net</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>> > > > >> To: "vision 2020"<br>>>
> > <</font><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">>;<br>>>
> > > >> "Sunil Ramalingam"<br>>> > > > >>
<</font><a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>> > > > >> Sent: Sunday, February 22,
2009<br>>> 10:25 PM<br>>> > > > >> Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] Humane<br>>> > > interrogations work<br>>> >
> > >><br>>> > > > >><br>>> > >
> >> > Thanks, Sunil. I suppose we<br>>> all read<br>>>
> > between the lines<br>>> > > > >> in our
interpretations of the<br>>> limitation of<br>>> > >
email<br>>> > > > >> conversation. Once we get<br>>>
hot-headed, that<br>>> > > interpretation<br>>> > > >
>> probably is distorted even more so.<br>>> > > > >>
><br>>> > > > >> > Obviously, moral
equivalences<br>>> are not so<br>>> > > much based
on<br>>> > > > >> particular nationalities, but
on<br>>> the<br>>> > > individuals who act<br>>> >
> > >> immoral. Some in the US probably<br>>> are
the<br>>> > > moral equivalent<br>>> > > > >>
of some members of the taliban or<br>>> al qaeda.<br>>> > >
> >> ><br>>> > > > >> > Anyone willing to
kill for<br>>> their agenda<br>>> > > is sick and<br>>>
> > > >> should be treated. Perhaps a<br>>> lobotomy
would<br>>> > > be the cure,<br>>> > > > >>
rather than killing them outright?<br>>> > > > >>
><br>>> > > > >> > gclev<br>>> > > >
>> ><br>>> > > > >> ><br>>> > >
> >> > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, Sunil<br>>> Ramalingam<br>>>
> > > >> <</font><a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>> wrote:<br>>> > > > >>
><br>>> > > > >> >> From: Sunil
Ramalingam<br>>> > > > >> <</font><a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>> > > > >> >> Subject: RE:
[Vision2020]<br>>> Humane<br>>> > > interrogations<br>>>
> > > >> work<br>>> > > > >> >> To:
</font><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">jampot@roadrunner.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">,<br>>>
> > </font><a href="mailto:garrettmc@verizon.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">garrettmc@verizon.net</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">,<br>>>
> > > >> "vision 2020"<br>>> > > <</font><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>>
> > > >> >> Date: Sunday, February 22,<br>>>
2009,<br>>> > > 9:35 PM<br>>> > > > >> >>
I don't think Garrett<br>>> made the<br>>> > > claim
you<br>>> > > > >> attribute to<br>>> > > >
>> >> him, and you're<br>>> speculating<br>>> > >
wildly in claiming<br>>> > > > >> he<br>>> > >
> >> >> believes what you write<br>>> below.<br>>>
> > > >> >><br>>> > > > >> >> Do
you really think that<br>>> dropping<br>>> > > bombs on
cities<br>>> > > > >> has some<br>>> > > >
>> >> moral superiority over<br>>> > >
'terrorism?' Are<br>>> > > > >> those<br>>>
> > > >> >> victims any less dead?<br>>> > >
> >> >><br>>> > > > >> >>
Sunil<br>>> > > > >> >><br>>> > > >
>> >> > From:<br>>> </font><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">jampot@roadrunner.com</font></a><br><font face="Arial" size="2">>> >
> > >> >> > To:<br>>> </font><a href="mailto:garrettmc@verizon.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">garrettmc@verizon.net</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">;<br>>>
> > > >> </font><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><br><font face="Arial" size="2">>> > > > >> >> > Date: Sun, 22
Feb<br>>> 2009 19:29:11<br>>> > > -0800<br>>> > >
> >> >> > Subject: Re:<br>>> [Vision2020]<br>>>
> > Humane<br>>> > > > >> interrogations
work<br>>> > > > >> >> ><br>>> > >
> >> >> > Take from my response<br>>>
anything<br>>> > > you like.<br>>> > > > >>
It's<br>>> > > > >> >> definitely not that I
have<br>>> no<br>>> > > > >> >> > argument
with your<br>>> diatribe,<br>>> > > it's just<br>>> >
> > >> that I see<br>>> > > > >> >>
little point in trying to<br>>> > > > >> >> > have
a discussion<br>>> with anyone<br>>> > > who
actually<br>>> > > > >> believes<br>>> > > >
>> >> that the USA is the<br>>> > > > >>
>> > moral equivalent of<br>>> al-qaeda or<br>>> > >
the taliban.<br>>> > > > >> If<br>>> > > >
>> >> that's the world you<br>>> live in<br>>> > >
> >> >> > I feel sorry for you<br>>> but I<br>>>
> > really don't<br>>> > > > >> believe<br>>>
> > > >> >> there is any common ground<br>>> >
> > >> >> > from which to move<br>>> this
dialog<br>>> > > forward. As<br>>> > > > >> for
your<br>>> > > > >> >> infernal living<br>>>
> > > >> >> > arrangements, again<br>>>
my<br>>> > > sympathies but I'm<br>>> > > > >>
afraid I<br>>> > > > >> >> can accept no<br>>>
> > > >> >> > responsibility for<br>>> where
you<br>>> > > choose to<br>>> > > > >>
reside.<br>>> > > > >> >> ><br>>> > >
> >> >> > g<br>>> > > > >> >> >
----- Original<br>>> Message ----- <br>>> > > > >>
>> > From: "Garrett<br>>> > > Clevenger"<br>>> >
> > >> >><br>>> <</font><a href="mailto:garrettmc@verizon.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">garrettmc@verizon.net</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>>
> > > >> >> > To:<br>>> > > <</font><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">>;
"g.<br>>> > > > >> >> crabtree"<br>>> > >
<</font><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">jampot@roadrunner.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>>
> > > >> >> > Sent: Sunday,<br>>> February 22,
2009<br>>> > > 5:49 PM<br>>> > > > >> >>
> Subject: Re:<br>>> [Vision2020]<br>>> > >
Humane<br>>> > > > >> interrogations work<br>>> >
> > >> >> ><br>>> > > > >> >>
><br>>> > > > >> >> > > I'll take
it<br>>> from your<br>>> > > snide<br>>> > > >
>> response, g,<br>>> > > > >> >> that you have
no argument<br>>> > > > >> >> > > against
my<br>>> diatribe.<br>>> > > > >> >> >
><br>>> > > > >> >> > > You did
prove<br>>> > > Donovan's point,<br>>> > > > >>
though, that<br>>> > > > >> >> some poeple just
can't<br>>> be<br>>> > > > >> >> > >
reasoned with,<br>>> and my<br>>> > > point, due
to<br>>> > > > >> this, that<br>>> > > >
>> >> perhaps we are condemned<br>>> to<br>>> > >
> >> >> > > live in Hell.<br>>> > > >
>> >> > ><br>>> > > > >> >> >
><br>>> Congratulation's on<br>>> > > helping keep
the<br>>> > > > >> ball<br>>> > > > >>
>> rolling...<br>>> > > > >> >> >
><br>>> > > > >> >> > > gclev<br>>>
> > > >> >> > ><br>>> > > > >>
>> > ><br>>> > > > >> >> > > --- On
Sun,<br>>> 2/22/09, g.<br>>> > > crabtree<br>>> >
> > >> >><br>>> <</font><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">jampot@roadrunner.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">>
wrote:<br>>> > > > >> >> > ><br>>> >
> > >> >> > >> From: g.<br>>>
crabtree<br>>> > > > >> >><br>>> <</font><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">jampot@roadrunner.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>>
> > > >> >> > >> Subject: Re:<br>>> >
> [Vision2020] Humane<br>>> > > > >> >>
interrogations work<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
To:<br>>> > > </font><a href="mailto:garrettmc@verizon.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">garrettmc@verizon.net</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">,<br>>> > > > >> >> </font><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><br><font face="Arial" size="2">>> >
> > >> >> > >> Date:<br>>> Sunday,
February<br>>> > > 22, 2009,<br>>> > > > >>
12:25 PM<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
"I<br>>> imagine most<br>>> > > of these acts<br>>> >
> > >> are<br>>> > > > >> >> consequences
of the<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
American<br>>> Empire<br>>> > > willing to commit<br>>>
> > > >> the same<br>>> > > > >> >>
atrocities."<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>><br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
I'm<br>>> thinking not<br>>> > > so much a book<br>>>
> > > >> as a tool<br>>> > > > >> >>
catalog.<br>>> > > > >> >> > >><br>>>
> > > >> >> > >> As the<br>>> Ham-ster
would<br>>> > > say "nuff<br>>> > > > >>
>> said."<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>><br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
g<br>>> > > > >> >> > >><br>>> >
> > >> >> > >> -----<br>>> Original
Message<br>>> > > ----- From:<br>>> > > > >>
>> "Garrett<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>><br>>> Clevenger"<br>>> > > > >>
<</font><a href="mailto:garrettmc@verizon.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">garrettmc@verizon.net</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>>
> > > >> >> > >> To:<br>>> > >
<</font><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">>;<br>>>
> > > >> "g.<br>>> > > > >> >>
crabtree"<br>>> > > > >> >> > >><br>>>
> > <</font><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">jampot@roadrunner.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>>
> > > >> >> > >> Sent:<br>>>
Saturday,<br>>> > > February 21, 2009<br>>> > > >
>> 7:53 PM<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
Subject: Re:<br>>> > > [Vision2020] Humane<br>>> > >
> >> >> interrogations work<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >><br>>> > > > >> >> >
>><br>>> > > > >> >> > >> >
I<br>>> don't<br>>> > > condone the violent<br>>> >
> > >> acts you<br>>> > > > >> >>
mention,<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
either,<br>>> whether<br>>> > > committed by
suicide<br>>> > > > >> bombers,<br>>> > > >
>> >> alleged<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> hijackers,<br>>> or the<br>>> > > powers that
be<br>>> > > > >> that distort<br>>> > > >
>> >> truth for<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> their own<br>>> agenda. I<br>>> > > imagine most
of<br>>> > > > >> these<br>>> > > > >>
>> acts are<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
consequences<br>>> of the<br>>> > > American
Empire<br>>> > > > >> willing<br>>> > > >
>> >> to commit the<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> same<br>>> atrocities.<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> ><br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> > There<br>>> may be some<br>>> > >
imagined<br>>> > > > >> slights, but<br>>> > >
> >> >> there are also<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> some very<br>>> real<br>>> > > slights.
History is<br>>> > > > >> replete<br>>> > >
> >> >> with examples of<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> US policy<br>>> directly<br>>> > >
responsible for<br>>> > > > >> killing<br>>> >
> > >> >> innocents. If<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> you're<br>>> willing to<br>>> > >
retaliate for<br>>> > > > >> feeling<br>>> > >
> >> >> slighted, why<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> wouldn't<br>>> your<br>>> > > supposed
enemies,<br>>> > > > >> >> who've
probably<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
witnessed<br>>> more<br>>> > > bloodshed than<br>>> >
> > >> hopefully<br>>> > > > >> >> we'll
ever see,<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
want<br>>> vengeance, too?<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> ><br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
><br>>> You're<br>>> > > probably aware of<br>>> >
> > >> the US<br>>> > > > >> >> financial
and<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
military<br>>> support of<br>>> > > Saddam Hussein<br>>>
> > > >> during the<br>>> > > > >> >>
80's. The<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> US
backed<br>>> Iraq in<br>>> > > their war against<br>>>
> > > >> Iran,<br>>> > > > >> >> where
a million or<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> so
people<br>>> were killed.<br>>> > > The US also<br>>>
> > > >> knew<br>>> > > > >> >> Saddam
was gassing<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> the
Kurds,<br>>> where,<br>>> > > guess what,<br>>> >
> > >> innocent women,<br>>> > > > >> >>
children and<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> men died
of<br>>> chemical<br>>> > > weapons. But<br>>> > >
> >> apparently,<br>>> > > > >> >> the
US<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
condoned<br>>> Saddam's<br>>> > > actions.<br>>> >
> > >> >> > >> ><br>>> > > >
>> >> > >> > The<br>>> Iranians<br>>> >
> suffered under the<br>>> > > > >> Shaw, a<br>>>
> > > >> >> dictator<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> propped up<br>>> by the US.<br>>> > >
The Saudis,<br>>> > > > >> too, suffer<br>>> >
> > >> >> under the<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> Sauds, who<br>>> the US is<br>>> > >
willing to<br>>> > > > >> support to<br>>> > >
> >> >> insure access to<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> oil, and<br>>> military<br>>> > >
bases.<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
><br>>> > > > >> >> > >> > As
for<br>>> Osama, the<br>>> > > CIA trained<br>>> >
> > >> and paid<br>>> > > > >> >> him and
his<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
muhjadeen<br>>> during the<br>>> > > Afghan war<br>>>
> > > >> against the<br>>> > > > >> >>
Soviets. So the<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> US
is<br>>> implicated in<br>>> > > the deaths they<br>>>
> > > >> caused<br>>> > > > >> >>
during that war,<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> as
well.<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
><br>>> > > > >> >> > >> >
Those<br>>> are only a<br>>> > > few of the<br>>> >
> > >> reasons some<br>>> > > > >> >>
people hate<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> the US
and<br>>> are trying<br>>> > > to bring it<br>>> >
> > >> down, to<br>>> > > > >> >> hold
its citizens<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
accountable,<br>>> to make<br>>> > > us pay with<br>>>
> > > >> similar<br>>> > > > >> >>
heartache. It was<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
only a<br>>> matter of time<br>>> > > before all<br>>>
> > > >> that pent up<br>>> > > > >>
>> anger would<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
make its way<br>>> to the<br>>> > > US,<br>>> > >
> >> unfortunately.<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> ><br>>> > > > >> >> > >> >
It<br>>> seems unfair<br>>> > > of you to be<br>>> >
> > >> upset over<br>>> > > > >> >> the
deaths of<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
Americans,<br>>> but not of<br>>> > > other people<br>>>
> > > >> who died<br>>> > > > >> >> as
a result of<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> US
policy.<br>>> Personally,<br>>> > > I think all<br>>>
> > > >> of these<br>>> > > > >> >>
deaths are a<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
travesty.<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
><br>>> > > > >> >> > >> >
Nothing<br>>> exist<br>>> > > inside a vacuum.<br>>>
> > > >> Every<br>>> > > > >> >> bomb
has a boom.<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> Every
person<br>>> who is<br>>> > > tortured brings<br>>> >
> > >> us closer<br>>> > > > >> >> to our
doom.<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
><br>>> > > > >> >> > >> > All
our<br>>> values<br>>> > > will not save<br>>> > >
> >> us. All our<br>>> > > > >> >> wealth
is<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
valueless<br>>> when we<br>>> > > become like our<br>>>
> > > >> enemy and<br>>> > > > >> >>
sell our souls<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> to
oppress.<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
><br>>> > > > >> >> > >> > We
live<br>>> in a<br>>> > > freer society than<br>>> >
> > >> where<br>>> > > > >> >> the
alleged<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
terrorist<br>>> dwell. We<br>>> > > have access to<br>>>
> > > >> more info,<br>>> > > > >> >>
and the<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> ability
to<br>>> dissent.<br>>> > > These other folk<br>>> >
> > >> have<br>>> > > > >> >> seen, and
are<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> taught,
how<br>>> US policy<br>>> > > is<br>>> > > >
>> hypocritical and<br>>> > > > >> >> leads to
their<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
becoming<br>>> second class<br>>> > > citizens. If
I<br>>> > > > >> lived<br>>> > > > >>
>> there and lost a<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> loved one<br>>> due to the<br>>> > > US, I'd
be<br>>> > > > >> pretty<br>>> > > >
>> >> pissed, too. I<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> can<br>>> empathize with<br>>> > > their
frustration<br>>> > > > >> at what<br>>> > >
> >> >> seems to be<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> policy<br>>> designed to<br>>> > > enrich some
in<br>>> > > > >> the US at<br>>> > > >
>> >> the expense of<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> their<br>>> well-being.<br>>> > > I'm
actually<br>>> > > > >> surprised<br>>> > >
> >> >> their isn't<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> more<br>>> retaliation, but<br>>> > >
maybe<br>>> > > > >> that's due to<br>>> > >
> >> >> there being<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> more saner<br>>> heads than<br>>> > > we know,
or<br>>> > > > >> maybe due<br>>> > > >
>> >> to increased<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> security.<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
><br>>> > > > >> >> > >> >
These<br>>> > > people's view of<br>>> > > > >>
history,<br>>> > > > >> >> whether
accurate<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> or
not,<br>>> becomes part<br>>> > > of their<br>>> >
> > >> psyche. I can<br>>> > > > >> >>
imagine how that<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
shapes their<br>>> behavior<br>>> > > and view of<br>>>
> > > >> the US.<br>>> > > > >> >>
Since they live in<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> a
more<br>>> repressive<br>>> > > regime, it's a<br>>>
> > > >> lot<br>>> > > > >> >> harder
for them to<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> break
the<br>>> cycle of<br>>> > > hatred they have<br>>> >
> > >> towards<br>>> > > > >> >> us.
Since they<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
aren't<br>>> as<br>>> > > comfortable, it's<br>>> >
> > >> probably<br>>> > > > >> >> a lot
harder<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> for them
to<br>>> keep their<br>>> > > cool. Those<br>>> >
> > >> that are<br>>> > > > >> >> more
tolerant<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> are
probably<br>>> > > ostracized. The ones<br>>> > > >
>> who<br>>> > > > >> >> retaliate against
us<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> are
revered.<br>>> Thus,<br>>> > > natural selection<br>>>
> > > >> leads to<br>>> > > > >> >>
violence<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> against
the<br>>> US, and<br>>> > > themselves.<br>>> > >
> >> >> > >> ><br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> > I<br>>> imagine there<br>>> > >
are people over<br>>> > > > >> there<br>>> > >
> >> >> like you who<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> rally others<br>>> to act<br>>> > > violent.
They<br>>> > > > >> probably<br>>> > > >
>> >> say the same<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> thing you<br>>> do, and so<br>>> > > people
are<br>>> > > > >> enlisted into<br>>> > > >
>> >> what means<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> they have of<br>>> > > retaliation. If China<br>>>
> > > >> were<br>>> > > > >> >> taking
over our<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> country
with<br>>> military<br>>> > > might instead<br>>> >
> > >> of<br>>> > > > >> >> financially,
perhaps<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
we'd<br>>> have more<br>>> > > freedom fighters<br>>>
> > > >> willing<br>>> > > > >> >> to
kill and die<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> to
protect<br>>> our<br>>> > > homeland, and<br>>> >
> > >> we'd have a<br>>> > > > >> >>
better<br>>> > > > >> >> > >><br>>>
understanding of why<br>>> > > some are<br>>> > > >
>> willing to make<br>>> > > > >> >> the
ultimate<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> sacrifice
in<br>>> what they<br>>> > > deem to be<br>>> > >
> >> defense of<br>>> > > > >> >> their
country.<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
><br>>> > > > >> >> > >> ><br>>>
It's only<br>>> > > natural to want<br>>> > > >
>> to protect<br>>> > > > >> >> what
you<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> love.<br>>>
It's natural<br>>> > > to want to<br>>> > > >
>> retaliate.<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
> It<br>>> makes perfect<br>>> > > sense to me<br>>>
> > > >> that<br>>> > > > >> >>
violence begets<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
violence. We<br>>> send our<br>>> > > soldiers<br>>>
> > > >> there, who<br>>> > > > >> >>
bomb and kill<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
innocent<br>>> people, which<br>>> > > then leads
to<br>>> > > > >> pissed<br>>> > > >
>> >> off people who<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> want to bomb<br>>> us back.<br>>> > > But
that<br>>> > > > >> doesn't it<br>>> > > >
>> >> make it right,<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> or in our<br>>> best<br>>> > > interest. It
just<br>>> > > > >> makes it<br>>> > > >
>> >> look like<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> we're<br>>> barbarians.<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> ><br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> > The war<br>>> of terror<br>>> > > the US
is<br>>> > > > >> engaged in<br>>> > > >
>> >> only seems to<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> promote<br>>> further<br>>> > > violence,
which<br>>> > > > >> means the war<br>>> > >
> >> >> of terror<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> needs more<br>>> money and<br>>> > > troops to
fight<br>>> > > > >> that<br>>> > > >
>> >> violence. It's<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> absurd to<br>>> think we can<br>>> > > keep
killing,<br>>> > > > >> >> torturing and
bombing<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> our way
out<br>>> of this<br>>> > > mess, especially<br>>> >
> > >> >> considering there is<br>>> > > >
>> >> > >> historical<br>>> > > justification
for people<br>>> > > > >> to be mad<br>>> > >
> >> >> at us for us<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> letting our<br>>> government<br>>> > >
commit<br>>> > > > >> violence.<br>>> > > >
>> >> > >> ><br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> > By<br>>> letting them<br>>> > >
use our tax<br>>> > > > >> dollars,<br>>> > >
> >> >> like it or not,<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> we are<br>>> guilty of<br>>> > >
killing people, and<br>>> > > > >> thus,<br>>> >
> > >> >> there really are<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> no innocent<br>>> people,<br>>> > >
unless you are<br>>> > > > >> protesting<br>>> >
> > >> >> and not paying<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> taxes. Since<br>>> we are<br>>> > >
freer, we're<br>>> > > > >> actually<br>>> > >
> >> >> more guilty<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> than those<br>>> in more<br>>> > >
repressive<br>>> > > > >> regimes who<br>>> > >
> >> >> have no means of<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> deposing of<br>>> their<br>>> > >
government. We do<br>>> > > > >> not have<br>>> >
> > >> >> to be pawns in<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> the US<br>>> empire. We do<br>>> > >
not have to let<br>>> > > > >> them<br>>> > >
> >> >> engage our<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> military in<br>>> foreign<br>>> > > excursions
that<br>>> > > > >> quite<br>>> > > >
>> >> obviously are<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> mostly<br>>> intended to<br>>> > > secure
oil<br>>> > > > >> reserves.<br>>> > > >
>> >> > >> ><br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> ><br>>> We've spent<br>>> > >
hundreds of<br>>> > > > >> billions of<br>>> >
> > >> >> dollars, lost<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> more<br>>> Americans than<br>>> > > who
died during<br>>> > > > >> the 911<br>>> > >
> >> >> strikes, and<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> killed many,<br>>> many tens<br>>> > > of
thousands<br>>> > > > >> of<br>>> > > >
>> >> innocent people in<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> our desire<br>>> for<br>>> > >
vengeance. For what?<br>>> > > > >> More<br>>> >
> > >> >> hatred towards us,<br>>> > > >
>> >> > >> more loss of<br>>> lives,<br>>> >
> and more<br>>> > > > >> indebtedness to<br>>>
> > > >> >> fund this<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> folly.<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> ><br>>> > > > >> >> > >> >
I'm<br>>> able to<br>>> > > condemn all<br>>> > >
> >> these acts<br>>> > > > >> >> of
violence as<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> the
same<br>>> evil they<br>>> > > are: willing to<br>>>
> > > >> kill for<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >><br>>> self-righteousness.<br>>> > > >
>> >> > >> ><br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> ><br>>> Admittedly, at<br>>> > >
this point,<br>>> > > > >> there is no<br>>> >
> > >> >> easy solution.<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> Considering<br>>> we have a<br>>> > >
hard time<br>>> > > > >> treating our<br>>> > >
> >> >> own with<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> respect<br>>> amongst our<br>>> > >
different<br>>> > > > >> viewpoints,<br>>> > >
> >> >> perhaps we're<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> condemned to<br>>> live in<br>>> > >
this hell. We<br>>> > > > >> all are<br>>> > >
> >> >> animals<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> essentially<br>>> controlled<br>>> > > by
our<br>>> > > > >> emotions. Our<br>>> > > >
>> >> higher being is<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> smothered by<br>>> those who<br>>> > > want to
lash<br>>> > > > >> out. We<br>>> > > >
>> >> all have these<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> feelings,<br>>> but we all<br>>> > > can be
redeemed<br>>> > > > >> if<br>>> > > >
>> >> we're courageous<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> enough to<br>>> stand up to<br>>> > > the
powers<br>>> > > > >> that be and<br>>> > >
> >> >> say,<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>><br>>> "Enough!"<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> ><br>>> > > > >> >> > >> >
For<br>>> starters<br>>> > > though, we need to<br>>>
> > > >> reign in<br>>> > > > >> >>
the American<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> empire.
We<br>>> need to<br>>> > > hold Israel<br>>> > >
> >> accountable<br>>> > > > >> >> for
it's<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
double<br>>> standards<br>>> > > against the<br>>> >
> > >> Palestinians. We<br>>> > > > >> >>
need to stop<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
supporting<br>>> repressive<br>>> > > regimes. We<br>>>
> > > >> need to<br>>> > > > >> >>
have compassionate<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
policy that<br>>> treats all<br>>> > > Earthlings<br>>>
> > > >> with<br>>> > > > >> >>
respect. We need to<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
take the<br>>> higher ground<br>>> > > and say,<br>>>
> > > >> >> "Sorry."<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >><br>>> Reconciliation may<br>>> > >
sound cheesy, but<br>>> > > > >> it goes<br>>> >
> > >> >> a long way in<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> leading to<br>>> forgiveness<br>>> > >
for our<br>>> > > > >> trespasses.<br>>> > >
> >> >> > >> ><br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> > The<br>>> other<br>>> > >
alternative is to<br>>> > > > >> keep digging<br>>>
> > > >> >> ourselves in<br>>> > > >
>> >> > >> this hole of<br>>> hatred,<br>>>
> > which will lead<br>>> > > > >> to<br>>>
> > > >> >> further acts that<br>>> > > >
>> >> > >> we'll<br>>> feel<br>>> > >
we'll need to<br>>> > > > >> retaliate<br>>> >
> > >> >> against, ad<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> nauseam.<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> ><br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
><br>>> Corrosive<br>>> > > cynicism warmongers<br>>>
> > > >> display<br>>> > > > >> >>
certainly<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
isn't<br>>> the answer.<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> ><br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
><br>>> > > > >> >> > >> >
Sorry<br>>> for the<br>>> > > book. This<br>>> > >
> >> definitely<br>>> > > > >> >> became
longer than<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
intended...<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
><br>>> > > > >> >> > >> >
Peace,<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
><br>>> > > > >> >> > >> >
gclev<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
><br>>> > > > >> >> > >> ><br>>>
> > > >> >> > >> ><br>>> > > >
>> >> > >> > --- On<br>>> Sat,<br>>> >
> 2/21/09, g.<br>>> > > > >> crabtree<br>>> >
> > >> >> > >><br>>> > > <</font><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">jampot@roadrunner.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">>
wrote:<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
><br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> From: g.<br>>> > > crabtree<br>>> >
> > >> >><br>>> <</font><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">jampot@roadrunner.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>>
> > > >> >> > >> >><br>>> Subject:
Re:<br>>> > > [Vision2020]<br>>> > > > >>
Humane<br>>> > > > >> >> interrogations<br>>>
> > > >> >> > >> work<br>>> > > >
>> >> > >> >> To:<br>>> > > </font><a href="mailto:garrettmc@verizon.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">garrettmc@verizon.net</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">,<br>>>
> > > >> >> </font><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><br><font face="Arial" size="2">>> >
> > >> >> > >> >><br>>> Date:<br>>>
> > Saturday, February<br>>> > > > >> 21,
2009,<br>>> > > > >> >> 3:21 PM<br>>> > >
> >> >> > >> >><br>>> > > "Let's
assume for<br>>> > > > >> a moment<br>>> > >
> >> >> that<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> terrorists<br>>> are not<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> >><br>>> cockroaches,<br>>> > >
but humans who<br>>> > > > >> like you<br>>> >
> > >> >> and I have<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> the same<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> >><br>>> emotions of<br>>> > >
bitterness,<br>>> > > > >> anger and<br>>> > >
> >> >> desire to<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >><br>>> retaliate."<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> >><br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> >><br>>> Retaliate for<br>>> > > what?
Sorry,<br>>> > > > >> but I<br>>> > > >
>> >> can't even<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> begin to<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> imagine<br>>> > > flying jumbo jets<br>>>
> > > >> into<br>>> > > > >> >>
buildings full of<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
innocents<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> >>
or<br>>> strapping<br>>> > > on a bomb and<br>>> >
> > >> going out<br>>> > > > >> >>
and<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
deliberately<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> killing women<br>>> > > and
children<br>>> > > > >> most of<br>>> > > >
>> >> whom are my own<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> >><br>>> countrymen.<br>>> > > >
>> >> > >> >><br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> >><br>>> "Why do<br>>> > > you
think<br>>> > > > >> these people<br>>> > >
> >> >> would commit<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> such<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> dastardly<br>>> > > deeds, willing
to<br>>> > > > >> kill<br>>> > > > >>
>> other people?<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> What<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> specifics<br>>> > > would drive
these<br>>> > > > >> people<br>>> > > >
>> >> to act<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> so?"<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> According to<br>>> > > Osama<br>>> >
> > >> Bin-Laden, the<br>>> > > > >> >>
justification to<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
murder<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> nearly 3000<br>>> > > innocent men,<br>>>
> > > >> women, and<br>>> > > > >> >>
children was<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> that
after<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> >>
the<br>>> first<br>>> > > gulf war we were<br>>> >
> > >> not quick<br>>> > > > >> >> enough
in<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> removing
all<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> >>
of<br>>> our troops<br>>> > > from Saudi<br>>> > >
> >> Arabia to<br>>> > > > >> >> suit
his<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
tastes.<br>>> Never<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> >><br>>> mind that the<br>>> > >
Saudi<br>>> > > > >> government had<br>>> > >
> >> >> made no request<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> for us to<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> >><br>>> speed up the<br>>> > > rate at
which<br>>> > > > >> our<br>>> > > >
>> >> forces were to pull<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> out. To<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> >> the<br>>> contrary,<br>>> > > they
were<br>>> > > > >> rather<br>>> > > >
>> >> pleased to have us<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> in country<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> >> in<br>>> the short<br>>> > >
term.<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> Also, he was<br>>> > > miffed with<br>>>
> > > >> our support<br>>> > > > >> >>
for Israel,<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
totally<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> ignoring the<br>>> > > fact that<br>>>
> > > >> along with<br>>> > > > >> >>
the aid we send<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> to
that<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> country, we<br>>> > > also spend<br>>>
> > > >> billions in<br>>> > > > >> >>
aid to Syria,<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
Jordan,<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> Egypt,<br>>> > > Lebanon,<br>>> > >
> >> Afghanistan, and<br>>> > > > >> >>
Saudi Arabia.<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> > > > >> >> > >> >>
As<br>>> you can<br>>> > > see, I am rather<br>>> >
> > >> at a<br>>> > > > >> >> loss.
Please feel<br>>> > > > >> >> > >> free
to<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> jump in and<br>>> > > enlighten me
as<br>>> > > > >> to why<br>>> > > >
>> >> we were so<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> richly<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> deserving of<br>>> > > radical
muslim<br>>> > > > >> hatred<br>>> > > >
>> >> and how the<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> losses we<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> sustained on<br>>> > > 9/11 could
be<br>>> > > > >> justified<br>>> > > >
>> >> as simple pay<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> back for<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> >> our<br>>> misdeeds.<br>>> > > What is
it<br>>> > > > >> that you<br>>> > > >
>> >> imagine we might<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> do that<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> would sooth<br>>> > > these peoples<br>>>
> > > >> imagined<br>>> > > > >> >>
slights?<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> > > > >> >> > >> >>
g<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> -----<br>>> > > Original Message<br>>>
> > > >> ----- From:<br>>> > > > >> >>
"Garrett<br>>> > > > >> >> > >><br>>>
Clevenger"<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> > > > >> <</font><a href="mailto:garrettmc@verizon.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">garrettmc@verizon.net</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>>
> > > >> >> > >> >> To:<br>>> >
> > >> <</font><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">><br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> Sent:<br>>> > > Saturday, February<br>>>
> > > >> 21, 2009<br>>> > > > >> >>
11:11 AM<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> Subject:<br>>> > > [Vision2020]<br>>>
> > > >> Humane<br>>> > > > >> >>
interrogations work<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> > g,<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> >><br>>> ><br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> >><br>>> ><br>>> > > Let's assume for
a<br>>> > > > >> moment<br>>> > > > >>
>> that terrorists<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> are not<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> cockroaches,<br>>> > > but humans
who<br>>> > > > >> like you<br>>> > > >
>> >> and I have<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> the same<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> emotions of<br>>> > > bitterness,<br>>>
> > > >> anger and<br>>> > > > >> >>
desire to<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
retaliate.<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> ><br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> >><br>>> > Why do<br>>> > > you think
these<br>>> > > > >> people<br>>> > > >
>> >> would commit<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> such<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> dastardly<br>>> > > deeds, willing
to<br>>> > > > >> kill<br>>> > > > >>
>> other people?<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> What<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> specifics<br>>> > > would drive
these<br>>> > > > >> people<br>>> > > >
>> >> to act so?<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> >><br>>> ><br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> >><br>>> > I'm<br>>> > > asking to
see<br>>> > > > >> if we<br>>> > > >
>> >> could reason as<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> to why we<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> >><br>>> live in a<br>>> > > world
seemingly<br>>> > > > >> filled<br>>> > > >
>> >> with violence due<br>>> > > > >> >>
> >> to humans<br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> >><br>>> striking<br>>> > > fellow humans,
so<br>>> > > > >> as to<br>>> > > > >>
>> possibly<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
extricate<br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> ourselves<br>>> > > from this
deadly<br>>> > > > >> spiral...<br>>> > > >
>> >> > >> >><br>>> ><br>>> > >
> >> >> > >> >><br>>> > gclev<br>>>
> > > >> >> > >> >><br>>>
><br>>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> ><br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> >><br>>> > > > >> >> >
>><br>>> > > > >> >><br>>> > > >
>><br>>> > ><br>>>
=======================================================<br>>> > >
> >> >> > >> >><br>>> > List<br>>>
> > services made<br>>> > > > >> available
by<br>>> > > > >> >> First Step<br>>> > >
> >> >> > >> Internet,<br>>> > > >
>> >> > >> >><br>>> > serving<br>>>
> > the<br>>> > > > >> communities of the<br>>>
> > > >> >> Palouse since<br>>> > > >
>> >> > >> 1994.<br>>> > > > >>
>> > >> >><br>>> ><br>>> > > >
>> >> </font><a href="http://www.fsr.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">http://www.fsr.net</font></a><br><font face="Arial" size="2">>> >
> > >> >> > >> >><br>>> > > >
>> >> > >> >><br>>> ><br>>> > >
> >> >><br>>> </font><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><br><font face="Arial" size="2">>> > > > >> >> > >>
>><br>>> ><br>>> > > > >> >> >
>> >><br>>> > > > >> >> >
>><br>>> > > > >> >><br>>> > > >
>><br>>> > ><br>>>
=======================================================<br>>> > >
> >> >> > >> >><br>>> ><br>>> >
> > >> >> > >> ><br>>> > > >
>> >> > >> ><br>>> > > > >>
>> > ><br>>> > > > >> >> ><br>>>
> > > >> >> ><br>>> > > > >>
>> ><br>>> > > > >> >><br>>> > >
> >><br>>> > ><br>>>
=======================================================<br>>> > >
> >> >> > List services made<br>>>
available<br>>> > > by First Step<br>>> > > >
>> Internet,<br>>> > > > >> >> >
serving the<br>>> communities of the<br>>> > > Palouse
since<br>>> > > > >> 1994.<br>>> > > >
>> >>
>
<br>>> > > </font><a href="http://www.fsr.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">http://www.fsr.net</font></a><br><font face="Arial" size="2">>> >
> > >><br>>> > > > >> >><br>>> >
> > >> >>
> <br>>> >
> </font><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><br><font face="Arial" size="2">>> > > > >> >> ><br>>> > > >
>> >><br>>> > > > >><br>>> >
><br>>>
=======================================================<br>>> > >
> >> ><br>>> > > > >> ><br>>> >
> > >><br>>> > ><br>>>
=======================================================<br>>> > >
> >> > List services made available<br>>> by First<br>>>
> > Step Internet,<br>>> > > > >> > serving the
communities of the<br>>> Palouse<br>>> > > since
1994.<br>>> > > > >>
>
<br>>> </font><a href="http://www.fsr.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">http://www.fsr.net</font></a><br><font face="Arial" size="2">>> >
> > >><br>>> > > > >>
> <br>>> </font><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><br><font face="Arial" size="2">>> > > > >> ><br>>> > > >
>><br>>> > ><br>>>
=======================================================<br>>> > >
> >> ><br>>> > > > > <br>>> > > >
<br>>> > > > <br>>> > > ><br>>> >
><br>>>
=======================================================<br>>> > >
> List services made available by First Step<br>>> Internet,
<br>>> > > > serving the communities of the
Palouse<br>>> since 1994. <br>>> > >
>
</font><a href="http://www.fsr.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">http://www.fsr.net</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">
<br>>> <br>>>
> > <br>>> > >
> </font><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><br><font face="Arial" size="2">>> > > ><br>>> > ><br>>>
=======================================================<br>> <br>>
=======================================================<br>> List
services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<br>>
</font><a href="http://www.fsr.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">http://www.fsr.net</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">
<br>> </font><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><br><font face="Arial" size="2">>
=======================================================<br>> <br>>
<br>> -- <br>> No virus found in this incoming message.<br>> Checked by
AVG. <br>> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date:
2/25/2009 6:40 AM<br>> <br>></font>
3DArial
size=2><a href="http://www.fsr.net"><a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a></a><font face="Arial" size="2">
<br>>> <br>>>
> > <br>>> > >
> </font><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><br><font face="Arial" size="2">>> > > ><br>>> > ><br>>>
=======================================================<br>> <br>>
=======================================================<br>> List
services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<br>>
</font><a href="http://www.fsr.net"><font face="Arial" size="2">http://www.fsr.net</font></a><font face="Arial" size="2">
<br>> </font><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><font face="Arial" size="2">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</font></a><br><font face="Arial" size="2">>
=======================================================<br>> <br>>
<br>> -- <br>> No virus found in this incoming message.<br>> Checked by
AVG. <br>> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1971 - Release Date:
2/25/2009 6:40 AM<br>> <br>></font>
BR>> <br>>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>=======================================================</span><br><span> List services made available by First Step Internet, </span><br><span> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. </span><br><span> <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a> </span><br><span> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a></a></span><br><span>=======================================================</span></div></blockquote></body></html>