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I don't think Garrett made the claim you attribute to him, and you're speculating wildly in claiming he believes what you write below.<br><br>Do you really think that dropping bombs on cities has some moral superiority over 'terrorism?' Are those victims any less dead?<br><br>Sunil<br><br>> From: jampot@roadrunner.com<br>> To: garrettmc@verizon.net; vision2020@moscow.com<br>> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:29:11 -0800<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work<br>> <br>> Take from my response anything you like. It's definitely not that I have no <br>> argument with your diatribe, it's just that I see little point in trying to <br>> have a discussion with anyone who actually believes that the USA is the <br>> moral equivalent of al-qaeda or the taliban. If that's the world you live in <br>> I feel sorry for you but I really don't believe there is any common ground <br>> from which to move this dialog forward. As for your infernal living <br>> arrangements, again my sympathies but I'm afraid I can accept no <br>> responsibility for where you choose to reside.<br>> <br>> g<br>> ----- Original Message ----- <br>> From: "Garrett Clevenger" <garrettmc@verizon.net><br>> To: <vision2020@moscow.com>; "g. crabtree" <jampot@roadrunner.com><br>> Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 5:49 PM<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work<br>> <br>> <br>> > I'll take it from your snide response, g, that you have no argument <br>> > against my diatribe.<br>> ><br>> > You did prove Donovan's point, though, that some poeple just can't be <br>> > reasoned with, and my point, due to this, that perhaps we are condemned to <br>> > live in Hell.<br>> ><br>> > Congratulation's on helping keep the ball rolling...<br>> ><br>> > gclev<br>> ><br>> ><br>> > --- On Sun, 2/22/09, g. crabtree <jampot@roadrunner.com> wrote:<br>> ><br>> >> From: g. crabtree <jampot@roadrunner.com><br>> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work<br>> >> To: garrettmc@verizon.net, vision2020@moscow.com<br>> >> Date: Sunday, February 22, 2009, 12:25 PM<br>> >> "I imagine most of these acts are consequences of the<br>> >> American Empire willing to commit the same atrocities."<br>> >><br>> >> I'm thinking not so much a book as a tool catalog.<br>> >><br>> >> As the Ham-ster would say "nuff said."<br>> >><br>> >> g<br>> >><br>> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garrett<br>> >> Clevenger" <garrettmc@verizon.net><br>> >> To: <vision2020@moscow.com>; "g. crabtree"<br>> >> <jampot@roadrunner.com><br>> >> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 7:53 PM<br>> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work<br>> >><br>> >><br>> >> > I don't condone the violent acts you mention,<br>> >> either, whether committed by suicide bombers, alleged<br>> >> hijackers, or the powers that be that distort truth for<br>> >> their own agenda. I imagine most of these acts are<br>> >> consequences of the American Empire willing to commit the<br>> >> same atrocities.<br>> >> ><br>> >> > There may be some imagined slights, but there are also<br>> >> some very real slights. History is replete with examples of<br>> >> US policy directly responsible for killing innocents. If<br>> >> you're willing to retaliate for feeling slighted, why<br>> >> wouldn't your supposed enemies, who've probably<br>> >> witnessed more bloodshed than hopefully we'll ever see,<br>> >> want vengeance, too?<br>> >> ><br>> >> > You're probably aware of the US financial and<br>> >> military support of Saddam Hussein during the 80's. The<br>> >> US backed Iraq in their war against Iran, where a million or<br>> >> so people were killed. The US also knew Saddam was gassing<br>> >> the Kurds, where, guess what, innocent women, children and<br>> >> men died of chemical weapons. But apparently, the US<br>> >> condoned Saddam's actions.<br>> >> ><br>> >> > The Iranians suffered under the Shaw, a dictator<br>> >> propped up by the US. The Saudis, too, suffer under the<br>> >> Sauds, who the US is willing to support to insure access to<br>> >> oil, and military bases.<br>> >> ><br>> >> > As for Osama, the CIA trained and paid him and his<br>> >> muhjadeen during the Afghan war against the Soviets. So the<br>> >> US is implicated in the deaths they caused during that war,<br>> >> as well.<br>> >> ><br>> >> > Those are only a few of the reasons some people hate<br>> >> the US and are trying to bring it down, to hold its citizens<br>> >> accountable, to make us pay with similar heartache. It was<br>> >> only a matter of time before all that pent up anger would<br>> >> make its way to the US, unfortunately.<br>> >> ><br>> >> > It seems unfair of you to be upset over the deaths of<br>> >> Americans, but not of other people who died as a result of<br>> >> US policy. Personally, I think all of these deaths are a<br>> >> travesty.<br>> >> ><br>> >> > Nothing exist inside a vacuum. Every bomb has a boom.<br>> >> Every person who is tortured brings us closer to our doom.<br>> >> ><br>> >> > All our values will not save us. All our wealth is<br>> >> valueless when we become like our enemy and sell our souls<br>> >> to oppress.<br>> >> ><br>> >> > We live in a freer society than where the alleged<br>> >> terrorist dwell. We have access to more info, and the<br>> >> ability to dissent. These other folk have seen, and are<br>> >> taught, how US policy is hypocritical and leads to their<br>> >> becoming second class citizens. If I lived there and lost a<br>> >> loved one due to the US, I'd be pretty pissed, too. I<br>> >> can empathize with their frustration at what seems to be<br>> >> policy designed to enrich some in the US at the expense of<br>> >> their well-being. I'm actually surprised their isn't<br>> >> more retaliation, but maybe that's due to there being<br>> >> more saner heads than we know, or maybe due to increased<br>> >> security.<br>> >> ><br>> >> > These people's view of history, whether accurate<br>> >> or not, becomes part of their psyche. I can imagine how that<br>> >> shapes their behavior and view of the US. Since they live in<br>> >> a more repressive regime, it's a lot harder for them to<br>> >> break the cycle of hatred they have towards us. Since they<br>> >> aren't as comfortable, it's probably a lot harder<br>> >> for them to keep their cool. Those that are more tolerant<br>> >> are probably ostracized. The ones who retaliate against us<br>> >> are revered. Thus, natural selection leads to violence<br>> >> against the US, and themselves.<br>> >> ><br>> >> > I imagine there are people over there like you who<br>> >> rally others to act violent. They probably say the same<br>> >> thing you do, and so people are enlisted into what means<br>> >> they have of retaliation. If China were taking over our<br>> >> country with military might instead of financially, perhaps<br>> >> we'd have more freedom fighters willing to kill and die<br>> >> to protect our homeland, and we'd have a better<br>> >> understanding of why some are willing to make the ultimate<br>> >> sacrifice in what they deem to be defense of their country.<br>> >> ><br>> >> > It's only natural to want to protect what you<br>> >> love. It's natural to want to retaliate.<br>> >> > It makes perfect sense to me that violence begets<br>> >> violence. We send our soldiers there, who bomb and kill<br>> >> innocent people, which then leads to pissed off people who<br>> >> want to bomb us back. But that doesn't it make it right,<br>> >> or in our best interest. It just makes it look like<br>> >> we're barbarians.<br>> >> ><br>> >> > The war of terror the US is engaged in only seems to<br>> >> promote further violence, which means the war of terror<br>> >> needs more money and troops to fight that violence. It's<br>> >> absurd to think we can keep killing, torturing and bombing<br>> >> our way out of this mess, especially considering there is<br>> >> historical justification for people to be mad at us for us<br>> >> letting our government commit violence.<br>> >> ><br>> >> > By letting them use our tax dollars, like it or not,<br>> >> we are guilty of killing people, and thus, there really are<br>> >> no innocent people, unless you are protesting and not paying<br>> >> taxes. Since we are freer, we're actually more guilty<br>> >> than those in more repressive regimes who have no means of<br>> >> deposing of their government. We do not have to be pawns in<br>> >> the US empire. We do not have to let them engage our<br>> >> military in foreign excursions that quite obviously are<br>> >> mostly intended to secure oil reserves.<br>> >> ><br>> >> > We've spent hundreds of billions of dollars, lost<br>> >> more Americans than who died during the 911 strikes, and<br>> >> killed many, many tens of thousands of innocent people in<br>> >> our desire for vengeance. For what? More hatred towards us,<br>> >> more loss of lives, and more indebtedness to fund this<br>> >> folly.<br>> >> ><br>> >> > I'm able to condemn all these acts of violence as<br>> >> the same evil they are: willing to kill for<br>> >> self-righteousness.<br>> >> ><br>> >> > Admittedly, at this point, there is no easy solution.<br>> >> Considering we have a hard time treating our own with<br>> >> respect amongst our different viewpoints, perhaps we're<br>> >> condemned to live in this hell. We all are animals<br>> >> essentially controlled by our emotions. Our higher being is<br>> >> smothered by those who want to lash out. We all have these<br>> >> feelings, but we all can be redeemed if we're courageous<br>> >> enough to stand up to the powers that be and say,<br>> >> "Enough!"<br>> >> ><br>> >> > For starters though, we need to reign in the American<br>> >> empire. We need to hold Israel accountable for it's<br>> >> double standards against the Palestinians. We need to stop<br>> >> supporting repressive regimes. We need to have compassionate<br>> >> policy that treats all Earthlings with respect. We need to<br>> >> take the higher ground and say, "Sorry."<br>> >> Reconciliation may sound cheesy, but it goes a long way in<br>> >> leading to forgiveness for our trespasses.<br>> >> ><br>> >> > The other alternative is to keep digging ourselves in<br>> >> this hole of hatred, which will lead to further acts that<br>> >> we'll feel we'll need to retaliate against, ad<br>> >> nauseam.<br>> >> ><br>> >> > Corrosive cynicism warmongers display certainly<br>> >> isn't the answer.<br>> >> ><br>> >> ><br>> >> > Sorry for the book. This definitely became longer than<br>> >> intended...<br>> >> ><br>> >> > Peace,<br>> >> ><br>> >> > gclev<br>> >> ><br>> >> ><br>> >> ><br>> >> > --- On Sat, 2/21/09, g. crabtree<br>> >> <jampot@roadrunner.com> wrote:<br>> >> ><br>> >> >> From: g. crabtree <jampot@roadrunner.com><br>> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations<br>> >> work<br>> >> >> To: garrettmc@verizon.net, vision2020@moscow.com<br>> >> >> Date: Saturday, February 21, 2009, 3:21 PM<br>> >> >> "Let's assume for a moment that<br>> >> terrorists are not<br>> >> >> cockroaches, but humans who like you and I have<br>> >> the same<br>> >> >> emotions of bitterness, anger and desire to<br>> >> retaliate."<br>> >> >><br>> >> >> Retaliate for what? Sorry, but I can't even<br>> >> begin to<br>> >> >> imagine flying jumbo jets into buildings full of<br>> >> innocents<br>> >> >> or strapping on a bomb and going out and<br>> >> deliberately<br>> >> >> killing women and children most of whom are my own<br>> >> >> countrymen.<br>> >> >><br>> >> >> "Why do you think these people would commit<br>> >> such<br>> >> >> dastardly deeds, willing to kill other people?<br>> >> What<br>> >> >> specifics would drive these people to act<br>> >> so?"<br>> >> >><br>> >> >> According to Osama Bin-Laden, the justification to<br>> >> murder<br>> >> >> nearly 3000 innocent men, women, and children was<br>> >> that after<br>> >> >> the first gulf war we were not quick enough in<br>> >> removing all<br>> >> >> of our troops from Saudi Arabia to suit his<br>> >> tastes. Never<br>> >> >> mind that the Saudi government had made no request<br>> >> for us to<br>> >> >> speed up the rate at which our forces were to pull<br>> >> out. To<br>> >> >> the contrary, they were rather pleased to have us<br>> >> in country<br>> >> >> in the short term.<br>> >> >><br>> >> >> Also, he was miffed with our support for Israel,<br>> >> totally<br>> >> >> ignoring the fact that along with the aid we send<br>> >> to that<br>> >> >> country, we also spend billions in aid to Syria,<br>> >> Jordan,<br>> >> >> Egypt, Lebanon, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia.<br>> >> >><br>> >> >> As you can see, I am rather at a loss. Please feel<br>> >> free to<br>> >> >> jump in and enlighten me as to why we were so<br>> >> richly<br>> >> >> deserving of radical muslim hatred and how the<br>> >> losses we<br>> >> >> sustained on 9/11 could be justified as simple pay<br>> >> back for<br>> >> >> our misdeeds. What is it that you imagine we might<br>> >> do that<br>> >> >> would sooth these peoples imagined slights?<br>> >> >><br>> >> >> g<br>> >> >><br>> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garrett<br>> >> Clevenger"<br>> >> >> <garrettmc@verizon.net><br>> >> >> To: <vision2020@moscow.com><br>> >> >> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 11:11 AM<br>> >> >> Subject: [Vision2020] Humane interrogations work<br>> >> >><br>> >> >><br>> >> >> > g,<br>> >> >> ><br>> >> >> > Let's assume for a moment that terrorists<br>> >> are not<br>> >> >> cockroaches, but humans who like you and I have<br>> >> the same<br>> >> >> emotions of bitterness, anger and desire to<br>> >> retaliate.<br>> >> >> ><br>> >> >> > Why do you think these people would commit<br>> >> such<br>> >> >> dastardly deeds, willing to kill other people?<br>> >> What<br>> >> >> specifics would drive these people to act so?<br>> >> >> ><br>> >> >> > I'm asking to see if we could reason as<br>> >> to why we<br>> >> >> live in a world seemingly filled with violence due<br>> >> to humans<br>> >> >> striking fellow humans, so as to possibly<br>> >> extricate<br>> >> >> ourselves from this deadly spiral...<br>> >> >> ><br>> >> >> > gclev<br>> >> >> ><br>> >> >> ><br>> >> >><br>> >> =======================================================<br>> >> >> > List services made available by First Step<br>> >> Internet,<br>> >> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since<br>> >> 1994.<br>> >> >> > http://www.fsr.net<br>> >> >><br>> >> >> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> >> >> ><br>> >> >><br>> >> =======================================================<br>> >> >> ><br>> >> ><br>> >> ><br>> > <br>> <br>> <br>> =======================================================<br>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> http://www.fsr.net <br>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> =======================================================<br></body>
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