<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [Vision2020] Papal Forgiveness</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'>Fair enough! I’m not trying to give you a hard time. These are difficult questions to which I don’t have any answers either.<BR>
<BR>
BUT, getting back to the initial issue, I don’t think that the claim from Chas’s initial post is as absurd as it sounds outside of context, which is the way that you’ve noted it below: desecrating a Communion wafer is an act more serious than genocide. Certainly this sounds absurd but in the proper context it is equivalent to saying desecrating God is an act more serious than genocide, which is not that absurd.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 1/17/09 12:48 PM, "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1@msn.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'>Joe, I'm not at all interested in "winning" this or any other debate, and I agree that it is difficult to interpret Scripture -- especially when so many varying conclusions result from the same passage. My only concern here is, once again, trying to represent Biblical Christianity while commenting, not as perfectly as I'd like, on variances or, more important, errors thereof. My conclusions -- my saying something's in error -- should be examined by whoever hears or reads them, and discarded with gusto if found to be wrong. Either way, what matters most to me is that the Gospel never be maligned, misrepresented, or mocked. I am, in that regard, an "apologist" for the Christian faith, and, as you know, an "apologist" is one who defends (not apologizes for) the historic, orthodox faith. I don't always do it as well as I'd like, but it's still important to try. <BR>
<BR>
My concern here was that, in Chas' initial post, desecrating a Communion wafer was represented as an act more serious than genocide, and I hoped my contribution relieved Visionaires of that impression. <BR>
<BR>
Keely<BR>
<a href="http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/">http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/</a><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<HR ALIGN=CENTER SIZE="3" WIDTH="100%">From: josephc@wsu.edu<BR>
To: kjajmix1@msn.com<BR>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Papal Forgiveness<BR>
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:11:16 -0800<BR>
CC: chasuk@gmail.com; vision2020@moscow.com<BR>
<BR>
I'm not arguing for the interpretation, not saying it should be accepted over others. My only claim is that it is not absurd to take the words literally, for it is not obvious how the passage should be understood. As I've said before, the Bible does not come with a manual saying what passages are to be taken literally and which are to be understood symbolically, as you and I understand this particular passage.the whole point is that we too often jump from "it is obvious to me" to "it is obvious" forgetting about the background assumptions, traditions, etc. that play a role in the formation of our beliefs. We only notice the presuppositions and jumps in reasoning when they come from someone else.<BR>
<BR>
Think of it this way. How much of the difference between your views and those of a Catholic are due to the Text and how much to it's interpretation, whether to take a passage as symbolic or as literal? And if the guidelines for the later are not in the Text itself, how can this be a difference in religion?<BR>
<BR>
Not that I have answers to these questions?<BR>
<BR>
Joe<BR>
<BR>
Sent from my iPhone<BR>
<BR>
On Jan 17, 2009, at 11:09 AM, keely emerinemix <kjajmix1@msn.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'>Joe, I believe that for Christians who believe that the Bible is the Word of God, that Word must then take its place as the basis for faith and practice. The Catholic belief that Tradition -- something profoundly deeper than "we've always done it this way" -- is equal to Scripture in authority isn't a diminishment of Scripture as much as an elevation of doctrines and practices . . . which virtually always came about through someone's interpretation of Scripture. <BR>
<BR>
And I'm truly surprised that you would use the passage in Luke as a basis for transubstantiation, which is the belief that the host (wafer), at the priest's invocation, ceases to be a wheat-and-water product and becomes the literal, carnal, physical, flesh of Jesus Christ. I know you don't believe in transubstantiation, and neither do I, but to use a passage pregnant with obvious symbolism to argue for a doctrine that does away with the symbol in favor of the literal is an interesting hermeneutic -- and one that I'm surprised you would take on. Frankly, I'm not sure that even a staunch Roman Catholic would rest the doctrine on the Lucan passage you cite.<BR>
<BR>
I mean no disrespect, either to you or to the Roman Catholic Church; on the contrary, I take Communion weekly with my church family, and I take the symbol of the wafer very seriously, because it represents the body of Christ. I have participated in the Eucharist with wafers, French bread, oyster crackers and pieces of flatbread, and I do so because the bread-product represents -- puts me in remembrance of -- the sacrifice of my Savior. His literal body was pierced and crucified and in his literal body, he rose from the grave. But he isn't, in my way of thinking, literally and actually present in the bread, the chewing of which doesn't desecrate the body but nourishes the Body.<BR>
<BR>
My concern, from Chas' initial post, was that in every religious tradition, including the evangelical Protestant tradition with which I identify, there is a danger of adhering so rigidly to one verse, one strand of doctrine, one tradition or teaching, that the larger Truth to which we belong becomes diminished. Rigidity and literalism in any hermeneutic can lead to an over-emphasis on that which is less significant, sometimes to the point of absurdity. Witness the many churches that practice snake-handling, largely from a disputed passage in Mark. It's there, right in the text, that believers can handle poisonous snakes without being harmed -- I've read it! -- but I think we would all agree that there's a larger context that would mitigate that, if not do away with it altogether.<BR>
<BR>
The doctrine of transubstantiation, as much as I disagree with it, is a cherished doctrine held by millions of Christians. I would not divide from them over it. On the other hand, a statement that suggests that Slobodan Milesovic could have received forgiveness by going to his priest at St. Mary's here in town, while a local Catholic kid who, in a fit of immaturity and silliness, mishandles the Host and thus requires a papal dispensation to secure his salvation, invites mockery and, I think, doesn't fairly represent the teaching of the Church or the views of its members.<BR>
<BR>
Keely<BR>
<a href="http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/">http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/</a><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<HR ALIGN=CENTER SIZE="3" WIDTH="100%">Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Papal Forgiveness<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:20:01 -0800<BR>
From: josephc@wsu.edu<BR>
To: kjajmix1@msn.com; chasuk@gmail.com; vision2020@moscow.com<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'>Keely,<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'>Three quick sets of comments.<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'>First, I don’t think that scripture is the only basis for religious belief. Thus, I think it is fine if some Christians – Catholics, for instance – base some of their beliefs on something other than scripture. But you can’t be serious that there is no scriptural basis for the doctrine of transubstantiation. “And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.’” (Luke 22:19) I don’t see how you could be more direct than to say “This (bread) is my body.” Obviously you have a different interpretation than the literal one adopted by some Catholics and I have no desire to debate with you on this issue. For one thing, I’m sure that you could kick my Christian butt when it comes to the Text; for another, I don’t believe the doctrine in the first place, so I have little reason to defend it. But it is simply false to say that there is NO textual support for the doctrine of transubstantiation.<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'>Second, the issue here is not the truth or falsity of the doctrine of transubstantiation. I agree with you and Chas on that issue. The real issue is how we should approach discussions about disagreements of fundamental beliefs – religious, moral, and philosophical beliefs. I think that we should approach them with a more respectful tone than Chas has been taking. <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'>Third, I am in total agreement with you and Chas when it comes to social issues and religious belief. The history of Christianity is filled with atrocities. Chas has already given an “impressive” list. I wish that the Catholic Church would take a more sympathetic view toward the issue of abortion, that other Christian churches would re-examine their views about women, etc. I have a lot to say about politics and religion and I would love to see more thoughtful discussions on V2020 about these issues. The main reason I’ve been so critical of Chas is that I think that he’s making genuine, helpful, thoughtful discussions less likely. If we want to talk about these issue we need to adopt a more respectful tone otherwise we’re just preaching to the choir. No Christians – other than you, Donovan, and I – are listening. Certainly the Catholics have tuned him out. I don’t see how you are going to begin to change a Catholic’s mind about abortion if you start the discussion by mischaracterizing their beliefs in the way that Chas has. Who the heck are we kidding here?<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'>Best, Joe<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'><B>From:</B> keely emerinemix [<a href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com]">mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com]</a> <BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 16, 2009 1:11 PM<BR>
<B>To:</B> Campbell, Joseph; Charles Warren; vision2020@moscow.com<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] Papal Forgiveness<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>Joe, you make some good points. <BR>
<BR>
Still, my calling for some perspective in the desecrated wafer (host) vs. genocide issue springs from my belief that when truth claims are made in religion, as they are here, they ought to be defensible. That includes the doctrines that inform such claims. If, as Catholic Christians or Protestant or Orthodox Christians, we believe that the Bible is the Word of God and the basis for any appeal to doctrine or conduct, it's fair to ask for, or point out the lack of, Scriptural basis for that belief. I believe there is none, and my failure to find some Roman Catholic doctrine justified by Scripture is one of the things that led me, 25 years ago, to leave the Church. I won't join the "Catholics aren't Christians" chorus, ever, but I would hope the Vatican and each person in the pews would thoughtfully analyze the doctrine of transubstantiation from a Biblical perspective, just as I would hope that Southern Baptists would re-examine their conclusions regarding women's roles in church, family, and society -- or Calvinists their belief that God actually doesn't love, doesn't want to save, intends to create for the purpose of damnation, some people for no reason at all, other than His "good pleasure." <BR>
<BR>
A better example: I'm quite sure that some Christians in Moscow would like me to re-examine a whole lot of things that I believe, and I hope I would always be open to correction.<BR>
<BR>
Keely<BR>
<a href="http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/">http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/</a><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
<FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'><HR ALIGN=CENTER SIZE="2" WIDTH="100%"></SPAN></FONT></FONT>
<P>
<FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Papal Forgiveness<BR>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:58:43 -0800<BR>
From: josephc@wsu.edu<BR>
To: kjajmix1@msn.com; chasuk@gmail.com; vision2020@moscow.com<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'>Dear Keely,<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'>Desecration of Communion is desecration of God, according to these Catholics. Again, I don’t believe this and you don’t but the question is whether it is inappropriate for someone to think that desecration of God is the worst kind of sin. I don’t think it is in appropriate. There is really nothing new here, nothing different from Chas’s first set of remarks. He finds the thought of genuine Communion to be absurd. Well, good for him. He is not alone. Donovan finds Chas’s atheism to be absurd, too, and I don’t appreciate Donovan’s insulting remarks about Chas’s beliefs any more than I do Chas’s insulting remarks about Catholics. I’m neither a Catholic or an atheist but I have friends and family in both camps and it bothers me that their beliefs are discussed in such a flippant, insulting way.<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'>I find the whole idea of taking bits and pieces of someone’s fundamental beliefs out of context and making fun of them to be a worthless exercise. It is offensive and as far as I can tell of no good whatsoever. Why stop with Catholics? Why not find comments from other religions – Mormons, Muslims, Jews – that we can take out of context and make fun of? And what do we gain from this exercise? I just don’t get it.<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'>Any fundamental claim about the world – religious, philosophical, or whatever – looks odd to those who don’t accept. That is just the way that fundamental claims work. Going to the trouble to point out the oddness serves no useful end, as far as I can see. Ultimately it leaves us all open to the same kind of pointless ridicule.<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'>Best, Joe<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'><B>From:</B> vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [<a href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com]">mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com]</a> <B>On Behalf Of </B>keely emerinemix<BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 16, 2009 12:12 PM<BR>
<B>To:</B> Charles Warren; vision2020@moscow.com<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Papal Forgiveness<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>I think I'm with Chas on this one. A little perspective, please!<BR>
<BR>
Keely<BR>
<a href="http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/">http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/</a><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:38:42 -0800<BR>
> From: chasuk@gmail.com<BR>
> To: vision2020@moscow.com<BR>
> Subject: [Vision2020] Papal Forgiveness<BR>
> <BR>
> <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28663430/">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28663430/</a><BR>
> <BR>
> This just in:<BR>
> <BR>
> "Confessions of . . . sins . . . such as genocide or mass murder . . .<BR>
> [are] handled at the local level by priests and their bishops"<BR>
> <BR>
> However for the REALLY heinous sins, only the pope can grant absolution.<BR>
> <BR>
> Which sins are this grave, you wonder?<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, for example, only the pope can absolve those "who receive<BR>
> Communion and then remove the host from their mouths and spit it out<BR>
> or otherwise desecrate it," this article reports.<BR>
> <BR>
> So spitting out a wafer is worse than genocide?<BR>
> <BR>
> *Chas's head explodes*<BR>
> <BR>
> =======================================================<BR>
> List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <BR>
> <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a> <BR>
> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><BR>
> =======================================================<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'>
</SPAN></FONT>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
<FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'><HR ALIGN=CENTER SIZE="2" WIDTH="100%"></SPAN></FONT></FONT>
<P>
<FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. <a href="http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009"><http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009></a> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'>
</SPAN></FONT>
<P ALIGN=CENTER>
<FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'><HR ALIGN=CENTER SIZE="2" WIDTH="100%"></SPAN></FONT></FONT>
<P>
<FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. <a href="http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009"><http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009></a> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
<HR ALIGN=CENTER SIZE="3" WIDTH="100%">Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. <a href="http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009"><http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009></a> 3D"2" width="100%"> <BR>
<BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE="4"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. <a href="http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009"><http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009></a> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
<HR ALIGN=CENTER SIZE="3" WIDTH="100%">Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. <a href="http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009"><http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009></a> > <BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
<HR ALIGN=CENTER SIZE="3" WIDTH="100%">Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. <a href="http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009"><http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009></a> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>