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Joe, you make some good points. <br><br>Still, my calling for some perspective in the desecrated wafer (host) vs. genocide issue springs from my belief that when truth claims are made in religion, as they are here, they ought to be defensible. That includes the doctrines that inform such claims. If, as Catholic Christians or Protestant or Orthodox Christians, we believe that the Bible is the Word of God and the basis for any appeal to doctrine or conduct, it's fair to ask for, or point out the lack of, Scriptural basis for that belief. I believe there is none, and my failure to find some Roman Catholic doctrine justified by Scripture is one of the things that led me, 25 years ago, to leave the Church. I won't join the "Catholics aren't Christians" chorus, ever, but I would hope the Vatican and each person in the pews would thoughtfully analyze the doctrine of transubstantiation from a Biblical perspective, just as I would hope that Southern Baptists would re-examine their conclusions regarding women's roles in church, family, and society -- or Calvinists their belief that God actually doesn't love, doesn't want to save, intends to create for the purpose of damnation, some people for no reason at all, other than His "good pleasure." <br><br>A better example: I'm quite sure that some Christians in Moscow would like me to re-examine a whole lot of things that I believe, and I hope I would always be open to correction.<br><br>Keely<br>http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/<br><br><br><br><br><hr id="stopSpelling">Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Papal Forgiveness<br>Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:58:43 -0800<br>From: josephc@wsu.edu<br>To: kjajmix1@msn.com; chasuk@gmail.com; vision2020@moscow.com<br><br>
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<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dear Keely,</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Desecration of Communion is desecration of God, according to
these Catholics. Again, I don’t believe this and you don’t but the
question is whether it is inappropriate for someone to think that desecration
of God is the worst kind of sin. I don’t think it is in appropriate.
There is really nothing new here, nothing different from Chas’s first set
of remarks. He finds the thought of genuine Communion to be absurd. Well, good
for him. He is not alone. Donovan finds Chas’s atheism to be absurd, too,
and I don’t appreciate Donovan’s insulting remarks about Chas’s
beliefs any more than I do Chas’s insulting remarks about Catholics. I’m
neither a Catholic or an atheist but I have friends and family in both camps
and it bothers me that their beliefs are discussed in such a flippant,
insulting way.</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I find the whole idea of taking bits and pieces of someone’s
fundamental beliefs out of context and making fun of them to be a worthless
exercise. It is offensive and as far as I can tell of no good whatsoever. Why
stop with Catholics? Why not find comments from other religions –
Mormons, Muslims, Jews – that we can take out of context and make fun of?
And what do we gain from this exercise? I just don’t get it.</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Any fundamental claim about the world – religious,
philosophical, or whatever – looks odd to those who don’t accept.
That is just the way that fundamental claims work. Going to the trouble to
point out the oddness serves no useful end, as far as I can see. Ultimately it
leaves us all open to the same kind of pointless ridicule.</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Best, Joe</span></p>
<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
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<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';"> vision2020-bounces@moscow.com
[mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>keely emerinemix<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 16, 2009 12:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Charles Warren; vision2020@moscow.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Papal Forgiveness</span></p>
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<p class="EC_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Verdana','sans-serif';">I think I'm with Chas on this one. A
little perspective, please!<br>
<br>
Keely<br>
http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:38:42 -0800<br>
> From: chasuk@gmail.com<br>
> To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>
> Subject: [Vision2020] Papal Forgiveness<br>
> <br>
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28663430/<br>
> <br>
> This just in:<br>
> <br>
> "Confessions of . . . sins . . . such as genocide or mass murder . .
.<br>
> [are] handled at the local level by priests and their bishops"<br>
> <br>
> However for the REALLY heinous sins, only the pope can grant absolution.<br>
> <br>
> Which sins are this grave, you wonder?<br>
> <br>
> Well, for example, only the pope can absolve those "who receive<br>
> Communion and then remove the host from their mouths and spit it out<br>
> or otherwise desecrate it," this article reports.<br>
> <br>
> So spitting out a wafer is worse than genocide?<br>
> <br>
> *Chas's head explodes*<br>
> <br>
> =======================================================<br>
> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>
> http://www.fsr.net <br>
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>
> =======================================================</span></p>
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<p class="EC_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Verdana','sans-serif';">Windows
Live™: Keep your life in sync. <a href="http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009">Check it out.</a></span></p>
</div><br /><hr />Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. <a href='http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009' target='_new'>Check it out.</a></body>
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