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<DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Keely, Ted,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The issue of eating crackers as the alleged or symbolic flesh
of Christ and mental health can be described as such:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>There are two cases:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT size=2><STRONG>1. The crackers are really the
flesh of Christ.</STRONG></FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><STRONG>2. The crackers are the flesh
of Christ only in the imagination. Eating the crackers is at most a
symbolic performance of eating the flesh of Christ.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><STRONG>1. The crackers are really the
flesh of Christ.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>This would be absurd. They are crackers. They are
not flesh of any kind. Only the most divorced from reality person
would claim they are actual flesh, let alone the flesh of Christ.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Further, as </FONT><FONT size=2>has been demonstrated many
times, the crackers are not changed physically, chemically, or in any other
testable way by the mumbo-jumbo mutterings of anybody including the
Pope or the Curate of Crackpotland, Douglas Wilson, no matter what absurd
claims they may make.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Hence, anyone who believes that the crackers (or their
crumbs) are <STRONG>really</STRONG> flesh fragments of the alleged
Lord is in need the services of a competent mental health
professional.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><STRONG>2. The crackers are the flesh
of Christ only in the imagination. Eating the crackers is at most a
symbolic performance of eating the flesh of Christ.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If the crackers are not really the flesh of Christ, they can
only be that in the imagination. The so-called flesh of Christ in this
case is not real, but only imaginary.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>But see what this leads to: In two words:
<STRONG>symbolic cannibalism</STRONG>.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Consider the following <STRONG>outside</STRONG> of a
religious/superstitious context: If anyone chose to enthusiastically eat
the flesh of another person in this society or directed others to do the same,
they would certainly be regarded as in need the services of a competent mental
health professional.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>What if a person only really got off on just imagining eating
the flesh of an other person or directing others to do the same (outside of some
dire survival scenario)? Again, most would likely think this
person in need the services of a competent mental health
professional.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><STRONG>Inside</STRONG> a religious/superstitious
context: Does the situation get any better with the symbolic rather than
the actual cannibalism of the flesh of Christ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>What kind of alleged God would make absolution/salvation
dependent upon the supplicant getting off on symbolically cannibalizing part of
the God's son? (Or in case of the believers of the incomprehensible
Doctrine of the Trinity, cannibalizing part the flesh of the alleged
God itself?) This sounds very sick to me, and I think those who really
believe it are in need the services of a competent mental health
professional. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Also: this version of an alleged God makes this alleged
God seem extremely pathological, and the alleged God itself in need of a
competent mental health professional, if not in need of secure
institutionalization. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Did this allegedly all-powerful, all-knowing, perfectly good
God allegedly create the universe and humanity so this alleged God could
enjoy/demand being thought of as being eaten or having his Son being
eaten? And if anyone refuses to perform this perverted act, then
they can kiss eternal bliss goodbye? Does this make sense?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>(In addition, some crackpot is likely sometime to use this
eating the flesh ritual as the basis for a biblical justification of
cannibalism.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Hence, whether the supplicants, like the good Reverend Bob
Dietel or others, think the crackers are the actual flesh of Christ or only
imagine that it is as they snack on them, the results are the
same. Such acts are either actual or symbolic cannibalism; they can hardly
be characterized as mentally healthy (or pious).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Wayne A. Fox<BR>1009 Karen Lane<BR>PO Box 9421<BR>Moscow,
ID 83843</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><A href="mailto:waf@moscow.com">waf@moscow.com</A><BR>208
882-7975</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=starbliss@gmail.com href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com">Ted Moffett</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=kjajmix1@msn.com
href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com">keely emerinemix</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=deco@moscow.com
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A> ; <A
title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 28, 2008 12:39
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Fragments of
our Lord</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>keely wrote in the post below:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This minister is pious, not mentally ill.</DIV>
<DIV>-----------------</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><A
href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Contact_(film)#Cast">http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Contact_(film)#Cast</A></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>
<DD><B>Ellie Arroway:</B> Why did you do it?
<DD><B>Palmer Joss:</B> Our job was to select someone to speak for everybody.
And I just couldn't in good conscience vote for a person who doesn't believe
in God. Someone who honestly thinks the other ninety five percent of us suffer
from some form of mass delusion.
<DIV>----------------</DIV>
<DIV>Dialog between religious writer and spokesperson Palmer Joss (Matthew
McConaughey) and astronomer Ellie Arroway (Jodie Foster), from the film
"Contact," regarding why Palmer voted to not nominate Arroway to be the
human representative sent in the transport machine the alien intelligence
gave instructions on how to be built in the communication from space Arroway
discovered, suggests that if the minister is mentally ill, then ninety five
percent are also mentally ill, given the percentage of people who believe in
what some atheists consider to be "delusions." Believing a communion
wafer is in some sense "the body of Christ" is no more incredible than
believing in people rising from the dead three days after death, that the
Bible is the literal perfect word of a super being that created the
universe, or that humans have an eternal soul separate from the body that is
sent to mysterious realms after death (heaven, hell) depending on how virtuous
someone is.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It is a common human need to believe in questionable propositions
about the world and ourselves, in part because there is much about the
world humans do not understand that demands explanation, our awareness of the
finality of death being too much to bear, and the need for belief
systems to control and provide structure to society, regardless of the
objective truth or falsehood of the beliefs involved. As to when these
beliefs become "mental illness" is a very complex and difficult question, that
is often defined by convention and the demands of social functionality for the
individual, despite the efforts of modern psychiatry to present an objective
scientific model of mental illness. If someone hears the voice of God
too often in a socially inappropriate context, that interferes with "normal"
social relations or work, they may be declared a schizophrenic and
medicated. If a minister or a politician declares they are guided
directly by the voice of God, they sometimes lead millions to follow their
guidance. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>A case could be made that the millions who followed President G. W.
Bush with trust in his religious faith, given W. Bush's fervent
religious voting base that were impressed with his "born again" image, as he
led the US into the invasion of Iraq with WMD propaganda, involved a degree of
mass religious based delusional thinking:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><A
href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa">http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister
at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a
mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in
Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the
tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."</DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV>Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 12/26/08, <B class=gmail_sendername>keely
emerinemix</B> <<A href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com">kjajmix1@msn.com</A>>
wrote:</SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV>Perhaps the good reverend simply believes that the communion host is a
symbol of the death and resurrection of Christ, as Christians do, and
therefore worries about propriety to a degree greater than those who don't
believe.<BR> <BR>Roman Catholics believe that the wafer, sanctified at
Mass by the priest, somehow "transubstantiates" to become the body of
Christ; Lutherans believe that the body of Christ is incorporated into the
host; others, including evangelicals, believe that the wafer is a physical,
non-sacred but important symbol that represents the work of Christ on the
cross and from the tomb. Those of the Federal Vision tend to ascribe
salvific or near-salvific power (meaning "it saves") to communion, and
virtually all Christians would deny that.<BR> <BR>This minister is
pious, not mentally ill. <BR><BR>Keely<BR><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/"
target=_blank>http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/</A><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR>
<BR>From: <A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com" target=_blank>deco@moscow.com</A><BR>To: <A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 15:32:39
-0800<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fragments of our Lord
<DIV><SPAN class=e id=q_11e75e069a996ab2_1><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV><FONT size=2>It's hard to say what the good reverend was thinking when
he made the statement:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT style="FONT: 13px Courier" face=Courier color=#0000ff size=4>"It
doesn't crumb, and I don't like fragments of our Lord scattering all over
the floor."</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Because he is a privileged man, is it the
housecleaning part that he doesn't like? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Are fragments of our alleged Lord in the form of crackers
especially difficult to sweep or to vacuum? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Or are these fragments really flesh and blood, and
therefore clog and make a general mess out of the insides of vacuum
cleaners?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Is the good reverend worried that because the alleged Lord
has become fragmentized that like the king's men dealing with humpty Dumpty,
the alleged Lord will not be put back together again? But doesn't the
same problem arise when people eat these fragments that are allegedly part
of the body of the alleged Lord? Don't some parts of these
fragments become parts of bodies, or alternatively end up in sewer
lagoons? Wouldn't it be a much more formidable task to reassemble
these ingested fragments to reconstitute the alleged Lord than working with
fragments that are just sweepings?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Or does the good reverend have a much deeper problem
distinguishing fantasy from reality, and therefore in need the services of a
competent mental health professional?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Puzzled,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>W.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=nielsen@uidaho.edu
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:nielsen@uidaho.edu" target=_blank>Ralph Nielsen</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=errancy@iierrancy.com
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:errancy@iierrancy.com"
target=_blank>errancy@iierrancy.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 26, 2008 6:33
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Fragments of our Lord</DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV>NIELSEN
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="FONT: 13px Courier" face=Courier size=4>QUOTATION OF THE
DAY: The New York Times </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="MIN-HEIGHT: 16px; FONT: 13px Courier"><BR> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="FONT: 13px Courier" face=Courier size=4>"It doesn't
crumb, and I don't like fragments of our Lord scattering all over the
floor."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Courier size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="FONT: 13px Courier" face=Courier size=4>THE REV. BOB
DIETEL, about communion wafers manufactured by the Cavenaugh Company in
Greenville,
R.I.</FONT></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DD></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>