<div>keely wrote in the post below:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>This minister is pious, not mentally ill.</div>
<div>-----------------</div>
<div><strong><a href="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Contact_(film)#Cast">http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Contact_(film)#Cast</a></strong></div>
<div><strong></strong> </div>
<dd><b>Ellie Arroway:</b> Why did you do it?
<dd><b>Palmer Joss:</b> Our job was to select someone to speak for everybody. And I just couldn't in good conscience vote for a person who doesn't believe in God. Someone who honestly thinks the other ninety five percent of us suffer from some form of mass delusion. </dd>
<div>----------------</div>
<div>Dialog between religious writer and spokesperson Palmer Joss (Matthew McConaughey) and astronomer Ellie Arroway (Jodie Foster), from the film "Contact," regarding why Palmer voted to not nominate Arroway to be the human representative sent in the transport machine the alien intelligence gave instructions on how to be built in the communication from space Arroway discovered, suggests that if the minister is mentally ill, then ninety five percent are also mentally ill, given the percentage of people who believe in what some atheists consider to be "delusions." Believing a communion wafer is in some sense "the body of Christ" is no more incredible than believing in people rising from the dead three days after death, that the Bible is the literal perfect word of a super being that created the universe, or that humans have an eternal soul separate from the body that is sent to mysterious realms after death (heaven, hell) depending on how virtuous someone is.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It is a common human need to believe in questionable propositions about the world and ourselves, in part because there is much about the world humans do not understand that demands explanation, our awareness of the finality of death being too much to bear, and the need for belief systems to control and provide structure to society, regardless of the objective truth or falsehood of the beliefs involved. As to when these beliefs become "mental illness" is a very complex and difficult question, that is often defined by convention and the demands of social functionality for the individual, despite the efforts of modern psychiatry to present an objective scientific model of mental illness. If someone hears the voice of God too often in a socially inappropriate context, that interferes with "normal" social relations or work, they may be declared a schizophrenic and medicated. If a minister or a politician declares they are guided directly by the voice of God, they sometimes lead millions to follow their guidance. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>A case could be made that the millions who followed President G. W. Bush with trust in his religious faith, given W. Bush's fervent religious voting base that were impressed with his "born again" image, as he led the US into the invasion of Iraq with WMD propaganda, involved a degree of mass religious based delusional thinking:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'</div>
<div> </div>
<div><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa">http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div>One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."</div>
<div>------------------------------------------</div>
<div>Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett</div>
<div> </div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 12/26/08, <b class="gmail_sendername">keely emerinemix</b> <<a href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com">kjajmix1@msn.com</a>> wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div>Perhaps the good reverend simply believes that the communion host is a symbol of the death and resurrection of Christ, as Christians do, and therefore worries about propriety to a degree greater than those who don't believe.<br>
<br>Roman Catholics believe that the wafer, sanctified at Mass by the priest, somehow "transubstantiates" to become the body of Christ; Lutherans believe that the body of Christ is incorporated into the host; others, including evangelicals, believe that the wafer is a physical, non-sacred but important symbol that represents the work of Christ on the cross and from the tomb. Those of the Federal Vision tend to ascribe salvific or near-salvific power (meaning "it saves") to communion, and virtually all Christians would deny that.<br>
<br>This minister is pious, not mentally ill. <br><br>Keely<br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/</a><br>
<br><br><br><br><br>
<hr>
<br>From: <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:deco@moscow.com" target="_blank">deco@moscow.com</a><br>To: <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 15:32:39 -0800<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fragments of our Lord
<div><span class="e" id="q_11e75e069a996ab2_1"><br><br><br>
<div><font size="2">It's hard to say what the good reverend was thinking when he made the statement:</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">
<div><font style="FONT: 13px Courier" face="Courier" color="#0000ff" size="4">"It doesn't crumb, and I don't like fragments of our Lord scattering all over the floor."</font></div></font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">Because he is a privileged man, is it the housecleaning part that he doesn't like? </font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">Are fragments of our alleged Lord in the form of crackers especially difficult to sweep or to vacuum? </font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">Or are these fragments really flesh and blood, and therefore clog and make a general mess out of the insides of vacuum cleaners?</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">Is the good reverend worried that because the alleged Lord has become fragmentized that like the king's men dealing with humpty Dumpty, the alleged Lord will not be put back together again? But doesn't the same problem arise when people eat these fragments that are allegedly part of the body of the alleged Lord? Don't some parts of these fragments become parts of bodies, or alternatively end up in sewer lagoons? Wouldn't it be a much more formidable task to reassemble these ingested fragments to reconstitute the alleged Lord than working with fragments that are just sweepings?</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">Or does the good reverend have a much deeper problem distinguishing fantasy from reality, and therefore in need the services of a competent mental health professional?</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">Puzzled,</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">W.</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<blockquote dir="ltr" style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><b>From:</b> <a title="nielsen@uidaho.edu" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nielsen@uidaho.edu" target="_blank">Ralph Nielsen</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="errancy@iierrancy.com" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:errancy@iierrancy.com" target="_blank">errancy@iierrancy.com</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 26, 2008 6:33 AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Fragments of our Lord</div>
<div><br> </div>NIELSEN
<div>
<div><font style="FONT: 13px Courier" face="Courier" size="4">QUOTATION OF THE DAY: The New York Times </font></div>
<div style="MIN-HEIGHT: 16px; FONT: 13px Courier"><br> </div>
<div><font style="FONT: 13px Courier" face="Courier" size="4">"It doesn't crumb, and I don't like fragments of our Lord scattering all over the floor."</font></div>
<div><font face="Courier" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13px"><br></span></font></div>
<div><font style="FONT: 13px Courier" face="Courier" size="4">THE REV. BOB DIETEL, about communion wafers manufactured by the Cavenaugh Company in Greenville, R.I.</font></div></div></blockquote><br></span></div></div></blockquote>
</div></dd>