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Good points. I think there was, in the examples I used, an element of "well, I wouldn't want it, but THEY might," and I found that offensive. On the other hand, my grandmother used to give me the most out-of-style, ugly, useless clothes/purses/etc. every year -- the other girls had latigo leather flowered purses, she got me beige vinyl -- but I treasure the memories now and hope I was gracious in accepting them then. <br><br>Keely<br>http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/<br><br><br><br><br><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:57:33 -0800<br>From: donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vision2020 Digest, Vol 29, Issue 265<br>To: godshatter@yahoo.com; kjajmix1@msn.com<br>CC: vision2020@moscow.com; donaledwards@hotmail.com<br><br><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; -x-system-font: none;" valign="top"><div>Keely,</div>
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<div>I understand that a lot of people are arrogant about giving, and most people give to make themselves feel good, not the person they are giving to. </div>
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<div>But, I think that people need to learn to just accept what others give them, not for the uselessness of the object they are given, but because it makes the giver feel of some value to society and others, something I don't wish to deny anyone. I don't think that giving away my old things that I don't want is a good act, just a way to pawn off my unwanted goods to someone else without feeling guilty about just throwing it all away in the trash.</div>
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<div>If people mean well, I don't ever get mad. I am grateful they mean well. If they are doing something really offensive, or wrong, unknowingly, perhaps we should just as nicely and as equally well meaning, explain to them why their actions could be taken offensively. </div>
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<div>Best Regards,</div>
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<div>Donovan </div>
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<div><br><br>--- On <b>Sun, 11/30/08, keely <span>emerinemix</span> <i><kjajmix1@msn.com></i></b> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1@msn.com><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vision2020 Digest, Vol 29, Issue 265<br>To: godshatter@yahoo.com<br>Cc: vision2020@moscow.com, donaledwards@hotmail.com<br>Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 10:04 AM<br><br>
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Paul, I really enjoyed reading your thoughts here. I was especially touched at your friend's view of gifts as something we temporarily enjoy before passing on to others. I think that's very much in line with how we ought to honor Jesus' birth. <br><br>In the same vein, I'll share two quick horror stories from my ministry days:<br><br>It was the evening before Thanksgiving and a woman I know, a Christian, called to tell me her freezer had gone out and she had a half-rotten, half-still-cold turkey "that maybe one of my Mexican friends would want." I was astonished and more than a little offended (I wasn't as mellow and passive then as I am today . . . ). The same Christmas, a very well-off woman called me to her McMansion with an invitation to bring "the cutest Mexican kids I knew" to decorate cookies. I happened to have Julia and Riqui with me that weekend, so -- warily -- we went over and the kids did the cookie
thing. She then handed each of them a small, nicely wrapped present. I thought the day was going to turn out after all, until she asked me if I would be interested in "paying her back" by buying some product she was selling through some multi-level marketing thing. Also, would the kids' mom like to learn how to become a distributor?<br><br>Uh, no. And no. <br><br>I can't count the filthy, moldy, worn-out clothes people would donate for my friends, things that their kids wouldn't wear anymore due to the dirtiness and shabbiness and smell of each garment. And the "donors" weren't poor themselves. What people who were struggling offered was invariably nicer than what the affluent did. So we tried to teach our kids that it was especially cool to keep last year's jacket one more year and buy a new one for someone we knew, or some child whose parents were in prison (Monroe, WA, is home to three state
prisons). And when we did pass on clothing or toys, they were only things that could still be comfortably worn and safely played with. The standard was if we wouldn't want it or use it, we wouldn't give it, whether for Christmas or any other time.<br><br>I probably don't need to mention, but will anyway, that once my "cute little Mexican friends" entered their teen years, interest in helping them out waned considerably . . . <br><br>Thanks again, Paul.<br><br>Keely<br>http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/<br><br><br><br><br>> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 09:25:19 -0800<br>> From: godshatter@yahoo.com<br>> To: kjajmix1@msn.com<br>> CC: donaledwards@hotmail.com; vision2020@moscow.com<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vision2020 Digest, Vol 29, Issue 265<br>> <br>> Keely,<br>> <br>> I've been against the rampant commercialization of Christmas since I <br>> watched my first Peanuts Christmas special. However, the Santa
Claus <br>> meme can expose kids to the idea of gift giving and provides them a role <br>> model for such.<br>> <br>> I don't know how I feel about Santa lists. I've always hated having to <br>> come up with a list for someone of things I want. If I want it, I <br>> either have it or I'm saving up for it or I've come to terms with never <br>> owning it. Your point is very true that a surprise gift can be much <br>> better than one you got by placing an order. Myself, I don't mind <br>> getting gift cards, because it means I can choose something I want as <br>> opposed to getting something I already have or don't want.<br>> <br>> A Wiccan High Priestess I knew had a really good take on gift giving. <br>> It's sort of metaphysical. If she became aware that something she owned <br>> was needed by someone else, she would give it to them no matter how much <br>> it meant to her, no matter how expensive or not it
was. She would buy <br>> an item, or have it be given to her, and know that it was meant for <br>> someone else in the future. So she kept an eye out for who might need <br>> it, and make sure it got there when it was needed. That's how gift <br>> giving should work, in my opinion. <br>> <br>> Paul<br>> <br>> keely emerinemix wrote:<br>> > Interesting point, Paul, with "customer" as a better description than <br>> > "consumer" for people who buy things. "Consumer" conjures images of <br>> > PacMan-like non-stop, mindless buzzing and devouring . . . although <br>> > that seems to describe the Wal Mart tragedy fairly well.<br>> ><br>> > So while we're on the subject . . . how do you all, especially those <br>> > of you with children, feel about "Santa lists" and such? My kids are <br>> > 15 and almost 20; it's been a long time, obviously, since we dealt <br>> > with Santa Claus.
Even then, we explained that he was a friend of <br>> > Jesus' who visited once a year to remind us of Jesus' birth and helped <br>> > us distribute things to people in need. (Yeah, a rollicking fun mom I <br>> > was . . . ). <br>> ><br>> > But we never allowed them to make up lists of things they wanted, <br>> > either from Santa or from Aunt Stephanie or anyone else. I really <br>> > hate the image of children writing out what only looks like a "demand <br>> > list." It presumes, one, that they're entitled to receive things and, <br>> > two, that they're entitled to dictate to the donors what, exactly, it <br>> > is that they should choose for them to receive. Of course we kept in <br>> > mind things like the cool factor of the Pirate Lego set vs. the Space <br>> > Explorer Lego set, and we tried to steer family members away from <br>> > things we found objectionable, like
guns, but I never even liked -- <br>> > and still don't today -- the idea of ticking off a list of things <br>> > so-and-so wants, either for my kids to receive or for me to give to <br>> > other relatives. I like to receive small, thoughtful, meaningful <br>> > things that show me that whoever is gifting me knows me, my tastes, my <br>> > interests, etc., and wants to reflect them. Jeff's gift last year of <br>> > a leather briefcase and a book on the history of travel trailers meant <br>> > so much to me. Ditto for the beautiful leather notebook he gave me <br>> > two years before, or our first Christmas together's tiny vial of my <br>> > favorite perfume. They'd have meant a lot less if I'd simply handed <br>> > him my order for the year. Likewise, a history of reggae for my <br>> > eldest is a lot more fun to give when he's unaware that the book even <br>> > exists. <br>>
><br>> > This, of course, puts me on the list of Uncool Aunts sometimes. I <br>> > don't like giving or getting gift cards, even though I understand <br>> > they're a concession to holiday stress and overwhelming choice. But <br>> > I'd rather buy my niece something that sparks warm thoughts of her or <br>> > would help her in her career than go out, list in hand, and try to <br>> > satisfy even the most humbly-written tally of preferred gifts. My <br>> > side of the family -- my mother, father and step-mother, brother and <br>> > his wife and daughter, are all donating to favorite charities for <br>> > Christmas this year, and while the gift-giving of Christmas continues <br>> > apace on my husband's side of the family, I would love to see a return <br>> > to the exchange of simple, well-thought-out tokens of affection, <br>> > rather than the inevitable disappointment that Aunt
Keely didn't get <br>> > the director's cut of the movie instead of the commercial cut, or <br>> > bought a book instead of the peach-mango scented organic body lotion set.<br>> ><br>> > So am I the only mom-sister-aunt-daughter-daughter-in-law who feels <br>> > this way?<br>> ><br>> > Keely<br>> > http://keely-prevailingwinds.blogspot.com/<br>> ><br>> <br>> <br><br>
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