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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yes, I understand that. Mine wasn't an
argument for it, just a statement that it seems to me the right to privacy
could apply, inasmuch as that right usually (maybe always) comes with
limitations. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sue H. </FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com
href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">Donovan Arnold</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=josephc@wsu.edu
href="mailto:josephc@wsu.edu">Campbell, Joseph</A> ; <A
title=scooterd408@hotmail.com href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com">Scott
Dredge</A> ; <A title=vpschwaller@gmail.com
href="mailto:vpschwaller@gmail.com">vpschwaller@gmail.com</A> ; <A
title=vision2020@moscow.com href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">viz</A> ; <A
title=suehovey@moscow.com href="mailto:suehovey@moscow.com">Sue Hovey</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 13, 2008 1:07
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Rights, Guns,
Abortion, Speech, and Death</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
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<DIV>Sue,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think that euthanasia is an interesting issue for me because
I work in nursing homes with many of people that society discriminates
against. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I am against euthanasia for three major reasons.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>1) Insurance companies and bad family members would pressure the
elderly and family to euthanize early to save money and resources. I
could easily see an insurance company paying out cash returns to family
members whose mothers and fathers cost them millions less by opting for
the "death with dignity" option. Lots of vulnerable people would be
coerced and forced into this new "option" based on policies of insurance
companies loyal only to stock owners. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>2) It plays to the false and evil concept that the elderly's
worthiness to society is over. Our society is a sick society that thinks
youth is good and age is bad.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>3) It is an excuse for society not to take responsibility to care
of its elderly and those in need. This is an important aspect of being
human, and being a civilized society. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If people were not making a profit off of the health and welfare of
people, I could see this as an option. But it isn't. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Best Regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Donovan<BR><BR>--- On <B>Wed, 11/12/08, Sue Hovey
<I><suehovey@moscow.com></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From:
Sue <SPAN>Hovey</SPAN> <suehovey@moscow.com><BR>Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] Rights, Guns, Abortion, Speech, and Death<BR>To:
"Campbell, Joseph" <josephc@wsu.edu>, "Scott Dredge"
<scooterd408@hotmail.com>, vpschwaller@gmail.com, "viz"
<vision2020@moscow.com><BR>Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008,
8:11 PM<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Interesting point of view, but if the
right to privacy can be limited in case of abortion,
why determine it inappropriate in a person's decision to
die? I should think the right to privacy comes with limits in
most instances anyway. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sue H. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=josephc@wsu.edu href="mailto:josephc@wsu.edu" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>Campbell, Joseph</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=scooterd408@hotmail.com href="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com"
target=_blank rel=nofollow>Scott Dredge</A> ; <A
title=vpschwaller@gmail.com href="mailto:vpschwaller@gmail.com"
target=_blank rel=nofollow>vpschwaller@gmail.com</A> ; <A
title=vision2020@moscow.com href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target=_blank rel=nofollow>viz</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November 12,
2008 4:13 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020]
Rights, Guns, Abortion, Speech, and Death</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">Scott,</SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">I
agree with you about the difference between the issue of abortion and
death with dignity. I don’t think that there is a right to suicide and
I don’t think that one could justify suicide by appeal to the right to
privacy. Here are two questions that might help us to see the
difference:</SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">1/Is
it solely a person’s decision whether or not to give birth (if
pregnant)?</SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">2/Is
it solely a person’s decision when and how to die (if living)?</SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">I
think the answer to (1) is “In general, yes; the pregnant woman has
the sole decision” but the answer to (2) is “No.” (If I understand
your initial post to me on this subject, you would strike the “In
general” in the first answer!) </SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">Note,
too, that on the issue of abortion I agree, more or less, with Roe v.
Wade: Once the fetus reaches viability, it is no longer just the
mother who can decide (that is why I say “In general …” in answer to
(1)). Once the fetus reaches the point of viability the state has some
say in what happens, as I see it. Anyone who commits suicide, though,
is well beyond viability! So there is no inconsistency here. We are
social beings, our lives are interconnected with others, and with
those connections come obligations that complicate the matter. </SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">Here
is another way to put the point. If a single mother wants to have an
abortion within the first trimester does she owe anyone an
explanation? I think not. (Again, you might extend this to the end of
pregnancy.) If she wanted to kill herself does she owe anyone an
explanation? I think she does. Suicide is not a private decision. “No
man (or woman) is an island.”</SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">Lastly,
in general, I agree with what you say in the second paragraph below,
too. There might be other ways to establish death with dignity, other
than via the right to privacy. Certainly were I terminally ill and
faced with nothing but a short life of pain, I’d like to have a
choice. My Catholic upbringing would likely dictate what I would
choose but, in general, it would be nice if people had the choice. But
setting this up in a safe way that prevents abuse is difficult and I
have nothing enlightening to add to the debate. </SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">In
general, I’m a legal minimalist: the fewer laws the better. Laws
should only be established in cases of clear harms to clear persons.
Otherwise we should be allowed to do as we please.</SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'">Best,
Joe</SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri', 'sans-serif'"></SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma', 'sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma', 'sans-serif'">
vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Scott Dredge<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 10,
2008 10:51 PM<BR><B>To:</B> vpschwaller@gmail.com;
viz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Rights, Guns, Abortion,
Speech, and Death</SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>
<DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">I know
this is address to Dr. Campbell, but I'll chime in anyway with my 2
cents. I don't believe that 'right to privacy' is the proper way
to go after the 'death with dignity' issue. In certain cases
privacy would be a conflict of interest as the case where 2 brothers
plot to kill their parents under the guise of 'death with dignity' so
they can inherit the family jewelry store to solve their current
financial crisises before immediately getting into new ones.
BTW, have you all seen the movie 'Before the Devil Knows You're Dead'
starring Ethan Hawke, Marisa Tomei, and Albert Finney about 2 brothers
who come up with an ill-conceived idea to rob their parent's jewelry
store? I don't recommend it since it gave me nightmares for this
first time since I watched 'Open Water' the nightmarish movie Carl
Westberg recommended.<BR><BR>'Death with Dignity' should just be
argued for and against on some other grounds. Pick something
else other than 'right to privacy'...maybe avoiding excruciating pain
in the last 6 months of a terminal condition. Although I think
there are already loopholes in the law that allow this. One of
my girlfriend's ex-boyfriend had some rare spinal cancer about 15
years ago and when his 6'4" frame became emaciated to the point where
he looked like a 60 pound Auschwitz victim, his doctors gave him a
very high dose of morphine targeted to suppress his pain and one of
the side effects was that this dosage was that it killed him within 48
hours (this was according to one of our other friends so I can't vouch
for the accuracy / legality of this approach). Personally, I
think it would have been more humane to administer this treatment (if
guaranteed effective) a little earlier before wasting away to skin and
bones, constantly throwing up bile, being forced to endure months of
the worst case of dry mouth anyone can ever imagine, etc. Maybe
there are hard-to-imagine worse cases than this that could be used in
favor of shaping 'death with dignity' laws. And once again, you
need to somehow maneuver through the crowd of Bible thumpers although
every single one of them who fought to prevent Terri Schiavo's feeding
tube from being removed, all said 'she's in a far better place' after
she died / was murdered. <BR><BR>-Scott</SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">
<HR id=stopSpelling align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">Date:
Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:10:37 -0800<BR>From: vpschwaller@gmail.com<BR>To:
vision2020@moscow.com<BR>Subject: [Vision2020] Rights, Guns, Abortion,
Speech, and Death<BR><BR>Dr. Campbell - so taking this one more step,
should and would these "rights" be extended to those who choose death
with dignity? Does not the right to privacy similarly ground the
"right" to choose the timing of one's death as well?<BR><BR>Thank you
for your reply<BR><BR>GS</SPAN>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">On Mon,
Nov 10, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Campbell, Joseph <<A
href="mailto:josephc@wsu.edu" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>josephc@wsu.edu</A>> wrote:</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana', 'sans-serif'">Scott,<BR> <BR>I've
been reading your posts lately about the possible threat to the 2nd
amendment given the recent Obama election and, although I find your
thoughts and arguments interesting, I am in firm disagreement with
your view. So I'd like to say what I think about the issues. I've made
these points before but I don't think I've made them all to
you.<BR> <BR>First, you mention a lack of consistency between
liberal views on abortion rights and liberal views on gun rights. Some
of the confusion may be settled if, instead of talking about abortion
"rights," we talked about the right to privacy, the right upon which
the "right" to abortion is founded. Granted the right to privacy is
not an explicit right, not explicitly noted in the bill of rights, for
instance. But the argument is that several of those rights would make
no sense were there not a prior right to privacy. We could talk about
whether this argument is good or bad at a later point but for now
let's just assume that there is a right to privacy that grounds the
"right" to abortion.<BR> <BR>No one thinks that we have an
absolute right to privacy, one that should not be infringed under any
circumstance. In a court of law, for instance, a lawyer might ask a
defendant questions about his private life that might be deemed
inappropriate under normal circumstances. Yet the defendant cannot, or
cannot always, refuse to answer on the basis of his right to privacy.
A search warrant allows police to investigate the drawers containing
your undergarments. Similar examples abound.<BR> <BR>Consider
next the right to free speech. That right is not absolute either. I do
not have the right to slander you, to libel you, to tell lies about
you, or even (I would say) to insult you. I have a right to speak
freely and in so doing I might insult you but that does not mean that
I have a right to insult you. I looked up 'human rights' in an on-line
dictionary and got: "The basic rights and freedoms to which all humans
are entitled, often held to include the right to life and liberty,
freedom of thought and expression, and equality before the law." I am
entitled to speak freely but I'm not entitled to insult you. Still, in
an effort to ensure the former we might have to put up with the
instances of the latter.<BR> <BR>I would say the same about the
"right" to abortion, which I would not call a right at all. I have a
right to privacy and what that ensures is that the government cannot
tell me when I should and when I should not have a child. That is my
decision. Provisions should be made that allow me to make that
decision on my own, without government intrusion. That gives me
limited access to abortion. The "right" to abortion is founded on the
right to privacy, and since no one thinks that the right to privacy is
unrestricted, no one should be in favor of unrestricted abortion
"rights," though as in the case of free speech the initial right may
be important enough to allow for behaviors that others would deem
offensive. Such is the price of freedom.<BR> <BR>It is no mystery
when rights should be restricted, for no one has the right to deprive
another of his right. My right to free speech cannot restrict your
right to privacy, so restrictions against, say, my broadcasting your
home address and phone number are appropriate. In general, when my
acts are likely to lead to harm to other persons, the law may
intervene. My rights go only so far. What counts as a harm? What
counts as a person? These questions complicate the matter but clear
answers in each case abound, and in those clear cases laws may be made
restricting certain behaviors, behaviors that would otherwise be
protected.<BR> <BR>Thus, your view on gun rights seems to be far
more extreme than what I take to be the liberal view on abortion and
speech and rights in general. In the latter cases, we recognize
restrictions all the time. In fact, there are many restrictions to
speech and abortion that are already imbedded in the law. Few liberals
want to do away with laws against slander or laws against third
trimester abortion since in those cases the harms are clear. (In the
latter case, I am not talking about the harm to the fetus, I'm talking
about the harm to society in general, which might override the woman's
right to what goes on in her own body once the fetus has passed the
point of viability. That is how I understand Roe v.
Wade.)<BR> <BR>Someone above – I can't remember if it was you or
Dan or someone else – talked about the right to bear arms extending to
hunters and gun collectors, as if we had rights to hunt or rights to
collect as many and as diverse a collection of toys as we individually
deemed fit; that the second amendment protected the collection of any
gun by any person for whatever reason. That is like saying that
because I have a right to privacy I'd have a right to your house were
that the place that I felt most private. The second amendment says
nothing about hunting or collecting. Nothing at all, for there are no
such rights: not in the bill of rights, not in heaven, not on earth.
These are privileges at most, not rights.<BR> <BR>Nor is our
right to bear arms unrestricted, as you seem to suggest. If it were,
why not allow citizens to obtain nuclear arms? The reason is that the
chance for abuse and harm is great. The implication is that in such
cases, the restriction of arms is justified. To think that nuclear
arms offer the only such case is absurd. Ergo, there is no
unrestricted right to bear arms. That is a myth.<BR> <BR>I
understand that Americans have a fascination with guns, just as they
have a fascination with privacy and with speech, and given those
fascinations a tolerance for pushing the bounds of those rights should
be respected by all parties: conservatives should appreciate the
attempt from liberals to push the boundaries of our rights to privacy
and free speech, and liberals should appreciate the attempt from
conservatives to push the boundaries of our rights to guns and free
speech. (It seems that free speech is a right of which we all agree,
though how that right should be manifested is something about which we
don't always agree.) Toward that end, I'll try to be more respectful
of your attempts to keep your toys. But not to the extent of affording
easy access to nutcases like the Moscow and Virginia Tech murderers.
Clearly there is a problem with current gun laws but one that we
should be able to solve without infringing on your right to protect
yourself, or even your "right" to have a little
fun!<BR> <BR>Best,<BR>Joe
Campbell<BR> </SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
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