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<DIV><FONT size=2>Paul writes:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff>"I'm happy that Obama has some experience
with Islam and Muslims."</FONT> In addition, he argues that open
discussion without conditions among those that disagree is generally
desirable.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I can't agree strongly enough with the second
sentiment. While discussion may not always lead to conflict resolution,
having no discussion never does.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>With regard to his first point:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I think it a very big mistake to think there is heterogeneity
within the so-called Islamic community and within the so-called Christian
Community. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>There are two major Islamic sects between which there is very
little harmony, theological or otherwise. In fact, active news readers
will know that the division between the two sects is so great that it frequently
provokes murderous acts and other atrocities.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>According to <EM>The Encyclopedia of American Religion</EM>
there are at least 280 identifiable Christian sects of some noteworthy size in
the US each with significant but differing sub-sects. In addition, pick a
major ethical issue -- abortion, death penalty, gay marriage, gun control,
environmental stewardship, etc -- and it is easy to find major Christian sects
on the opposite sides of the issue.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Nobody speaks for either the so-called Islamic community or
so-called Christian community, and in reality rather than artificial semantic
classification, there are no such communities. Things are far more complex
,and to some extent, much more fluid than that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Discussion is very important. But it is important to
know with whom you are having a discussion, who they may or may not represent,
and what power or influence they may yield over those they may claim to
represent. This is especially true on the national and international
level.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>W.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=godshatter@yahoo.com href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul
Rumelhart</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=no.weatherman@gmail.com
href="mailto:no.weatherman@gmail.com">No Weatherman</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:03
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Candidate
issues — Foreign Policy</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I was planning on starting other issues threads, anyway.
I guess I'd <BR>like to start with the implication that simply sitting down to
talk with <BR>someone without preconditions is somehow the wrong thing to
do. If we <BR>don't start a dialogue, how are we supposed to get
anywhere?<BR><BR>Diplomacy used to be this country's strong suit, before our
current <BR>President trashed out international reputation. Sit down,
discuss, look <BR>for points of potential compromise, stand firm on issues we
have no room <BR>for compromise on. It's an art that our country seems
to have lost. We <BR>have a lot more weapons in our arsenal than tanks
and automatic rifles, <BR>if we'd just use them.<BR><BR>Also, sitting down and
discussing issues with bad people, even <BR>terrorists, does not transfer
those ideas automatically like some kind <BR>of virus. Besides, today's
terrorist is yesterday's CIA trainee. It's <BR>a crazy world we live in,
and uncompromising positions based on fear <BR>doesn't serve us too well in
it.<BR><BR>I'm happy that Obama has some experience with Islam and
Muslims. He <BR>might be able to get past this country's prejudices and
find a solution <BR>to Iraq that is workable for everyone. That is, if
he doesn't get shot <BR>because some idiot thinks he's an
"Ayrab".<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>No Weatherman wrote:<BR>> Paul:<BR>><BR>>
Don't be offended but I'd rather not participate in the economic part<BR>>
of the conversation because I don't believe any candidate can "fix"<BR>>
the economy and in the end both men offer loser plans.<BR>><BR>> When
you're ready, I'd like to address foreign policy and Barack<BR>> Obama's
willingness to sit down with rogue world leaders, without<BR>>
precoditions, like Iran's president who believes Israel should be<BR>>
"wiped off the map."<BR>><BR>> The irony with this position is that
while some of Obama's LOUD and<BR>> dishonest supporters in this forum
refuse to engage me at all, their<BR>> homeboy Barack Obama wants to sit
down with leaders of<BR>> terrorist-sponsoring countries without any
preconditions that would<BR>> hold those countries
responsible.<BR>><BR>> I don't know the reason for Obama's naive
approach to foreign policy<BR>> but the best explanation for this policy is
that Obama has spent a the<BR>> vast majority of his adult life palling
around with terrorists, both<BR>> international and domestic, and so his
foreign policy would be no<BR>> different.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 8:27 AM, Paul Rumelhart <<A
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</A>>
wrote:<BR>> <BR>>> Right now, because the money has to
come from somewhere and I'd rather it<BR>>> not be on the backs of the
middle class, I'd say I'm for shifting some of<BR>>> the tax burden to
the corporations instead. I wouldn't call it "penalizing"<BR>>>
them, but the money has to come from somewhere.<BR>>><BR>>>
Getting out of Iraq would also help the economy.<BR>>><BR>>>
Paul<BR>>><BR>>> No Weatherman
wrote:<BR>>> <BR>>>> Apologies. My
bad.<BR>>>><BR>>>> So where are you on the
issue?<BR>>>><BR>>>> Penalize corporations or relieve their
burden?<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>> On Sun, Oct 12, 2008
at 10:34 AM, Paul Rumelhart <<A
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</A>><BR>>>>
wrote:<BR>>>><BR>>>>
<BR>>>>> I'm sorry, but the hell they do. I'm not saying
that no corporations<BR>>>>> should<BR>>>>> make a
profit. That would be silly. I'm saying that no
_specific_<BR>>>>> corporation has a right to a profit. They
only have a right to be able<BR>>>>> to<BR>>>>>
compete on a level playing field.<BR>>>>> If Corporation X goes
broke because Uncle Sam raised their taxes, then<BR>>>>>
Corporation Y (who has found a way to work a little leaner) will step
in<BR>>>>> and<BR>>>>> take over their
customers. Likewise, if Corporation X pulls up it's<BR>>>>>
stakes<BR>>>>> in the US and moves it's headquarters to China,
then Corporation Y might<BR>>>>> just step up to the plate with a
"made in America" ad campaign. It's not<BR>>>>> like we're
going to run every corporation into the ground because
we're<BR>>>>> raising taxes on them. Like you said, they'll
just pass it on to the<BR>>>>> customer anyway. But now said
customer has a choice - should they spend<BR>>>>> their extra
paycheck money on shoes for the kids, or on a widget from<BR>>>>>
Company X?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
Paul<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> No Weatherman
wrote:<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
<BR>>>>>> Comrade
Paul:<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> Corporations absolutely
have a right to make a profit and it's<BR>>>>>> possible to tax
them right out of existence or out of the
country.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> And if they go broke
or abandon the US, how where will the government<BR>>>>>> get
its tax revenues?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> Why don't we
worry about where people are going to find their next
meal<BR>>>>>> before we worry about how corporations are
supposed to make their<BR>>>>>>
profits?<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 12, 2008
at 10:10 AM, Paul Rumelhart <<A
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</A>><BR>>>>>>
wrote:<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
<BR>>>>>>> If you raise the gas prices, the transportation
costs are sent on to<BR>>>>>>>
the<BR>>>>>>> consumer. If you raise the price of some
component they need, the<BR>>>>>>>
costs<BR>>>>>>> are<BR>>>>>>> sent on to
the consumer. If you raise the minimum wage, the costs
are<BR>>>>>>> sent<BR>>>>>>> on to the
consumer. What Obama wants to do is relieve some of
the<BR>>>>>>> burden<BR>>>>>>>
on<BR>>>>>>> the "consumer", by lowering their personal tax
burden. With all these<BR>>>>>>>
costs<BR>>>>>>> being passed on to them, lowering their tax
burden might actually<BR>>>>>>>
convince<BR>>>>>>> them that they can still buy their
product.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Corporations
don't have a right to make a profit. If economic
times<BR>>>>>>> are<BR>>>>>>> tough, we
should be focusing on the individual, not on how well
Company<BR>>>>>>> X<BR>>>>>>> can sell
widgets to people that probably don't even need
them.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> If you have a
bunch of yahoos making more money than they know what
to<BR>>>>>>> do<BR>>>>>>> with, why overly
tax the person that's living on ramen noodles and<BR>>>>>>>
Koolaid?Why don't we worry about where people are going to find
their<BR>>>>>>> next meal<BR>>>>>>> before
we worry about how corporations are supposed to make
their<BR>>>>>>>
profits?<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> Just my two
cents.<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
Paul<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> No Weatherman
wrote:<BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>
<BR>>>>>>>>
Paul:<BR>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>> If you
raise taxes on corporations so that you can lower taxes for
one<BR>>>>>>>> sector of the population, how do you think
those corporations will<BR>>>>>>>> recover the money they
lost by the tax
increase?<BR>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>> THEY
WILL RAISE PRICES ON THEIR PRODUCT TO RECOUP THEIR
LOSSES.<BR>>>>>>>> THEREFORE, ANY MONEY GAINED BY TAX
RELIEF WILL BE LOST AT THE CHECKOUT<BR>>>>>>>>
STAND.<BR>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>>
Punitive tax hikes on corporations do not take place in a black
hole<BR>>>>>>>> and neither does redistribution of
wealth. These companies are in<BR>>>>>>>> business to
make money, not pay taxes, and they will make
their<BR>>>>>>>> profit, taxes or
not.<BR>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>>
On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 9:00 AM, Paul Rumelhart <<A
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</A>><BR>>>>>>>>
wrote:<BR>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>>
<BR>>>>>>>>> This is an attempt to get a discussion
started on the issues instead<BR>>>>>>>>>
of<BR>>>>>>>>> all the threads on who associates with
who and who is encouraging the<BR>>>>>>>>> most
emotional
responses.<BR>>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>>>
Here are links to the sections on the economy from the Democratic
and<BR>>>>>>>>> Republican candidates for
office:<BR>>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>>>
John McCain: <A
href="http://www.johnmccain.com/Issues/jobsforamerica/">http://www.johnmccain.com/Issues/jobsforamerica/</A><BR>>>>>>>>>
Barack Obama: <A
href="http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/">http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/</A><BR>>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>>>
The biggest difference between the two, in my opinion, from
my<BR>>>>>>>>>
reading<BR>>>>>>>>> is that John McCain is focusing on
helping corporations through tax<BR>>>>>>>>> breaks to
help the economy whereas Barack Obama is focusing on
tax<BR>>>>>>>>> breaks for the middle class
instead. Both plans have a lot of<BR>>>>>>>>>
provisions I like - both are looking at different ways that
the<BR>>>>>>>>> work/family balance can be
strengthened, for
example.<BR>>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>>>
There's a lot of information there to go through. Please let us
know<BR>>>>>>>>> your thoughts, so we can all become
more educated on the candidates<BR>>>>>>>>>
positions. Also, if others want to tackle third-party positions
on<BR>>>>>>>>> the<BR>>>>>>>>>
topics, please do. I'm not educated enough about them this
time<BR>>>>>>>>>
around<BR>>>>>>>>> to even know who they all
are.<BR>>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>>>
Paul<BR>>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>>>>>>
List services made available by First Step
Internet,<BR>>>>>>>>> serving the communities of
the Palouse since
1994.<BR>>>>>>>>>
<A
href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</A><BR>>>>>>>>>
<A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>>>>>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>>>
<BR>>>>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>>>>>
List services made available by First Step Internet, serving
the<BR>>>>>>>> communities of the Palouse since
1994.<BR>>>>>>>> <A
href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</A><BR>>>>>>>>
<A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>>>>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>><BR>>>>>>>>
<BR>>>>>>>
<BR>>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>>>
List services made available by First Step Internet, serving
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href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</A><BR>>>>>>
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href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>>>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>
<BR>>>>>
<BR>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>>
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href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</A><BR>>>>
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href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>>>>
=======================================================<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
<BR>>><BR>>> <BR>><BR>>
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