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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm glad you're managing to keep your sense of
humor. I was becoming a bit concerned. </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>From my
side of the monitor it looked as though you were having an
extremely difficult t</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>ime with
consistency (same old, same old) and as a result der weather dude was
</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>enjoying your lunch after all! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>nighty nite,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:joekc@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>joekc@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To: "g. crabtree" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Cc: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 3:36
PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Obama
Dilemma</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Wow, talk about getting emotional, Gary!<BR><BR>Most of these are
versions of the ad hominem fallacy, guilt by association in particular, which
<BR>you noted was fallacious. And these are the BEST arguments that have been
presented!?!<BR><BR>I'm not saying that Obama's "connection" with Ayers is good.
I'm saying it is irrelevant to whether<BR>or not he should be president. And I
said it was irrelevant when the issue was first posted.<BR><BR>And how could
you, or No Weatherman, have the nerve to say that someone's "association"
with<BR>a "nut ball pastor and mentor" is reason for condemnation? Let's
get serious. If it is, you are in<BR>a heap of trouble! Since you are not, it is
a bad argument. Again, guilt by association.<BR><BR>And how about this argument:
"McCain was born in Iraq. If I'm wrong, prove it." Is that worthy of
<BR>consideration? Is your failure to prove me wrong relevant? No. The argument
is a complete joke.<BR><BR>The only thing that isn't surprising is that you
think that these are all good arguments. Oh, dear!<BR>That will keep me laughing
for the rest of the day! Thanks!<BR><BR>--<BR>Joe Campbell<BR><BR>---- "g.
crabtree" <</FONT><A href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>> wrote:
<BR>> >"You implied below that No Weatherman's posts we challenging and
that is <BR>> >why myself and others<BR>> >do not respond to them,
Gary. Name one good argument that he has given. <BR>> >Just one."<BR>>
<BR>> Talk about distorting posts, I said nothing about "good
arguments." My <BR>> exact quote was "that he has the unmitigated gall to
bring up topics along <BR>> with<BR>> citations that you find
uncomfortable and difficult to reconcile."<BR>> <BR>> That said lets look
at some of the topics NW has presented:<BR>> <BR>> BHO's affiliation
with Bill Ayers. Unquestionably a legitimate issue to <BR>> examine.<BR>>
<BR>> The One's twenty plus year even closer affiliation with his nut ball
pastor <BR>> and mentor, Jeremiah Wright and his crackpot hate whitey/hate
America <BR>> church.<BR>> <BR>> Next we have the dual citizenship
topic. I would have thought this you and <BR>> your pals could have handled
immediately. Either your savior does not have <BR>> dual citizenship or he
does. If not, present your documentation and case <BR>> closed, you win your
"argument." If so, a definite subject for inquiry and <BR>> comment.<BR>>
<BR>> Which of these have you reconciled? Have you made a convincing case
that <BR>> Ayers isn't a terrorist? Have you squared Wright's rhetoric with a
potential <BR>> president of all the people in America, not just the one
covered by his <BR>> mentors questionable theology? Have you even answered
the simple yes/no <BR>> question of the dual citizenship?<BR>>
<BR>> To turn the topics into a winnable arguments, which you seem to
be so <BR>> desperate to do, tell me why it's good that our future president
be closely <BR>> associated with a bomb planting terrorist. Why it's a boon
to a presidential <BR>> resume to spend twenty years as a religious follower
of an America hating <BR>> racist. Any answer that starts with "Well,
McCain...," which is all that <BR>> I've heard up to now, is no answer at
all, it's a different discussion.<BR>> <BR>> Have a good weekend,<BR>>
g<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> From:
<</FONT><A href="mailto:joekc@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>joekc@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>> To:
"g. crabtree" <</FONT><A href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>> Cc:
<</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>>
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 8:11 AM<BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An
Obama Dilemma<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> It is fine with me if you want to
distort my posts. I'm powerless to stop <BR>> it. But would it be too<BR>>
much trouble to have some substantive contributions, to attempt to back up
<BR>> some of your claims?<BR>> <BR>> You implied below that No
Weatherman's posts we challenging and that is why <BR>> myself and
others<BR>> do not respond to them, Gary. Name one good argument that he has
given. Just <BR>> one.<BR>> <BR>> He strikes me as a narrow-minded
bigot. The fact that you defend him is <BR>> curious. So since you<BR>>
think he is fine and makes good points, list one argument that he made which
<BR>> is not fallacious.<BR>> Just one. You cannot do it which is why you
haven't done so yet.<BR>> <BR>> --<BR>> Joe Campbell<BR>> <BR>>
---- "g. crabtree" <</FONT><A href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>jampot@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
wrote:<BR>> > I didn't say I felt unqualified to say anything about Mr.
Witmer, I said<BR>> > that I had no idea if he was NW.<BR>>
><BR>> > I don't believe that I have ever attempted to tell others what
it is that<BR>> > you think. I'm not sure how I possibly could considering
the emotional<BR>> > nature of your posts.<BR>> ><BR>> >
Lastly, I find your remark '...for someone who finds something to say <BR>>
> after<BR>> > everyone one of my posts..." curious. You do realize
that since the last<BR>> > couple of meltdowns & protracted pouts I
only respond to the posts in <BR>> > which<BR>> > you address me
specifically by name don't you?<BR>> ><BR>> > g<BR>> > -----
Original Message ----- <BR>> > From: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:joekc@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>joekc@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>> >
To: "g. crabtree" <</FONT><A href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>jampot@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>> > Cc: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>> >
Sent: Friday, October 03, 2008 6:37 AM<BR>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An
Obama Dilemma<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > See what I said! I knew you
would help me to make my point! I find it<BR>> > interesting that,
since<BR>> > you've never met Chris Witmer, you don't feel qualified to
say anything<BR>> > about him. Yet, even<BR>> > though you've never
met me, you do feel qualified so say something!<BR>> ><BR>> > Again,
there are lots of people from churches who post on Vision 2020,<BR>> >
myself included. All I<BR>> > really have a problem with is dishonesty,
and hypocrisy, and unwarranted<BR>> > arrogance. But don't<BR>> >
let me stop you from telling everyone what I really think since you're
the<BR>> > expert there!<BR>> ><BR>> > I'm amazed that for
someone who finds something to say after everyone one <BR>> > of<BR>>
> my posts, you<BR>> > never answer the serious questions or
challenges. Just yesterday there <BR>> > were<BR>> > two.<BR>>
><BR>> > 1) What was wrong with my abortion analysis?<BR>>
><BR>> > 2) Name one valid argument for a worthwhile point that Dr. No
has given?<BR>> > Just one.<BR>> ><BR>> > --<BR>> > Joe
Campbell<BR>> ><BR>> > ---- "g. crabtree" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
wrote:<BR>> > > From what I've read in your previous posts I take it
that you believe <BR>> > > that<BR>> > > No Weatherman is a
nom de guerre that hides the identity of Chris <BR>> > >
Witmer.<BR>> > > I<BR>> > > suppose that this could be the
case but, having never had the pleasure <BR>> > > of<BR>> > >
meeting Mr. Witmer, I certainly couldn't say with any degree of <BR>> >
> confidence<BR>> > > that it is or isn't and I'd love to see or
hear the evidence that you<BR>> > > might<BR>> > > have to
support your conviction. It could just as easily be someone <BR>> > >
else.<BR>> > > For all I know it could be you setting up the ultimate
straw man and for<BR>> > > all<BR>> > > you know it could be
me padding the visions ranks. I seriously doubt you<BR>> > > have
anything other than a gut feeling and I'm afraid that is not<BR>> > >
something<BR>> > > that is going to sway me very much. So, now that
I've "made your point"<BR>> > > what<BR>> > > was it exactly?
It reads as though you have a problem with an individual<BR>> > >
who<BR>> > > may or may not be affiliated with a local church posting
topics and<BR>> > > expressing a point of view regarding the democrat
candidate for <BR>> > > president<BR>> > > and I'm perplexed
as to how this would wad up your panties or drive you<BR>> > > "fricken
nuts." People from churches get to have and express opinions <BR>> > >
just<BR>> > > the same as everyone else. Maybe I'm not as intelligent
as you give me<BR>> > > credit for since I really don't understand why
it upsets you the way you<BR>> > > claim that it does.<BR>> >
><BR>> > ><BR>> > > g<BR>> > ><BR>> > >
----- Original Message ----- <BR>> > > From: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:joekc@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>joekc@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>> >
> To: "g. crabtree" <</FONT><A href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>jampot@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>> > > Cc: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>> >
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 9:33 PM<BR>> > > Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] An Obama Dilemma<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> >
> I have supported J. Ford for personal reasons. But as has been
pointed<BR>> > > out.<BR>> > > Other than that I'm<BR>>
> > not sure what you're talking about. But since you seem to have all of
my<BR>> > > posts saved and<BR>> > > categorized -- or one of
your friends does -- no doubt you'll bring one <BR>> > > up<BR>>
> > if I'm mistaken!<BR>> > ><BR>> > > I am not reading
Dr. No's posts for the simple reason that what little I<BR>> > >
did<BR>> > > read contained, as I<BR>> > > noted, obvious and
numerous fallacies. There is not much of a challenge<BR>> > > there and
little interest.<BR>> > ><BR>> > > He does get my panties in a
wad, I'll admit. But not because of his<BR>> > > arguments, or even his
insults.<BR>> > > I still can't get over how a local church could so
blatantly act like a<BR>> > > political machine. That they<BR>> >
> can continue to do so while most people, intelligent though most may
be,<BR>> > > fail to notice what<BR>> > > strikes me as being
so dang obvious.<BR>> > ><BR>> > > Just to make my point, I'll
ask you straight up, Gary. Are you really<BR>> > > going<BR>> >
> to tell me that you don't<BR>> > > know who No Weatherman is, and
with what church he is affiliated? We may<BR>> > > have our
differences<BR>> > > but, previous name-calling aside, I certainly
consider you to be<BR>> > > intelligent. But my guess is, you'll say
"No" and "No." And that just<BR>> > > makes<BR>> > > my point.
I am stunned that they could pull the wool over<BR>> > > even your
eyes, a crafty, no-nonsense man of the people. Just thinking<BR>> > >
about<BR>> > > it, let alone being<BR>> > > reminded of it on
a daily basis, drives me fricken nuts.<BR>> > ><BR>> > > And
since I'm not reading Dr. No's posts and you consider him to be so<BR>> >
> challenging, could you just<BR>> > > repeat for me what you take
to be his best point, and the best argument<BR>> > > for<BR>> >
> that point. Just one.<BR>> > > If it is not an easily identifiable
fallacy, I'll be shocked. But prove <BR>> > > me<BR>> > >
wrong! Just one example.<BR>> > ><BR>> > > --<BR>> >
> Joe Campbell<BR>> > ><BR>> > > ---- "g. crabtree"
<</FONT><A href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
wrote:<BR>> > > > What is not so much offensive as hilarious is
someone who chooses to <BR>> > > > hop<BR>> > > >
up<BR>> > > > onto their moral high horse concerning one anonymous
contributor while<BR>> > > > having ignored or lauded so many
others. Where was your massive <BR>> > > > concern<BR>> > >
> when<BR>> > > > we were regularly receiving missives from B.
Herodotus, P.Place, T.<BR>> > > > Scimitar, J. Flores, and last but
far from the least (prolific) <BR>> > > > J.Ford?<BR>> > >
> I<BR>> > > > seem to recall several instances of your leaping
to the defense of at<BR>> > > > least<BR>> > > > one of
these miscreants. Clearly the problem that you are having with<BR>> > >
> Mr.<BR>> > > > Weatherman is that he has the unmitigated gall
to bring up topics <BR>> > > > along<BR>> > > >
with<BR>> > > > citations that you find uncomfortable and difficult
to reconcile. So,<BR>> > > > rather<BR>> > > > then
respond to the matter at hand, you attempt to divert the <BR>> > > >
discussion<BR>> > > > with phony outrage at the commentators
anonymity and/or his potential<BR>> > > > affiliations. I guess if
you can't answer the questions, attack and<BR>> > > > vilify<BR>>
> > > the questioner. I personally prefer to evaluate the argument,
taking<BR>> > > > into<BR>> > > > consideration the lack
of a name or a face as just one more piece of<BR>> > > >
information. So far, the mysterious nature of the anti-weather dude <BR>>
> > > has<BR>> > > > no<BR>> > > > bearing on
BHO's unsavory affiliations and his and his supporters<BR>> > > >
inability<BR>> > > > to account for them.<BR>> > >
><BR>> > > > g<BR>> > > > ----- Original Message
----- <BR>> > > > From: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:joekc@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>joekc@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>> >
> > To: <</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>> >
> > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 12:33 PM<BR>> > > >
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Obama Dilemma<BR>> > > ><BR>> >
> ><BR>> > > > > I'm not reading this but I just wanted to
point out that if Doug<BR>> > > > > Wilson<BR>> > > >
> thought that this was<BR>> > > > > inappropriate, then the
posts would stop in a heartbeat. Otherwise,<BR>> > > > >
I'm<BR>> > > > > not sure what to say<BR>> > > > >
about No Wetherman's bad joke on the Courtney blog. {Just because <BR>> >
> > > you<BR>> > > > > don't use your name, Dr.<BR>>
> > > > No, it does not mean that many of us do not know who you
are.}<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > > So, I ask you Area
Man and Roger Falen, Harkins and Crabtree: do you<BR>> > > > >
not<BR>> > > > > find it offensive that<BR>> > > >
> someone might post such comments without revealing his name? If it<BR>>
> > > > turns<BR>> > > > > out that this
person<BR>> > > > > was affiliated with a church, one that might
be a political group<BR>> > > > > instead<BR>> > > >
> of a religious one, would<BR>> > > > > that offend you? Do
you think that such groups should reap the<BR>> > > > >
benefits<BR>> > > > > sanctioned by the first<BR>> > >
> > amendment? Warning: If you say that this is OK, then you are<BR>>
> > > > sanctioning<BR>> > > > > a<BR>> > >
> > similar approach by<BR>> > > > > a pro-Obama spokesman,
perhaps on a national level. What do you <BR>> > > > >
think<BR>> > > > > in<BR>> > > > > this
light?<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > > > --<BR>> >
> > > Joe Campbell<BR>> > > > ><BR>> > > >
> ---- No Weatherman <</FONT><A
href="mailto:no.weatherman@gmail.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>no.weatherman@gmail.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
wrote:<BR>> > > > >> At the risk of offending those of you who
have already taken <BR>> > > > >> offense<BR>> > >
> >> by my cowardly, anonymous, and purely factual presence in
this<BR>> > > > >> one-sided conversation, please allow me to
ask a terribly awkward<BR>> > > > >> question that I hope will
cut to the heart of this issue about when<BR>> > > > >> life
begins.<BR>> > > > >><BR>> > > > >> We all
know that Barrack Hussein Obama is the illegitimate son (one<BR>> > >
> >> of<BR>> > > > >> many) of a Kenyan father who
knocked up a teenager from Kansas.<BR>> > > > >><BR>> >
> > >> Let's say that Roe v. Wade was in place back then and that
Obama's<BR>> > > > >> mother attempted to terminate her
pregnancy, via a saline abortion,<BR>> > > > >> but things
went sadly awry — the baby, or as some on this list <BR>> > > >
>> prefer<BR>> > > > >> to call it, the "potential human
being," refused to die.<BR>> > > > >><BR>> > > >
>> What moral obligations, if any, do you believe should be on the<BR>>
> > > >> attending physicians:<BR>> > > >
>><BR>> > > > >> 1. Kill the baby.<BR>> > >
> >> 2. Abandon the baby (which is number 1 by another name).<BR>>
> > > >> 3. Save the baby.<BR>> > > > >> 4.
Other.<BR>> > > > >><BR>> > > > >> As I
said, this is a terribly awkward question but it helps put <BR>> > >
> >> flesh<BR>> > > > >> and bones on this sensitive
subject and it's not beyond the realm <BR>> > > > >>
of<BR>> > > > >> possibility because it happens more often
than Americans want to<BR>> > > > >> know:<BR>> > >
> >><BR>> > > > >> </FONT><A
href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anieuWFWe8s&feature=related"><FONT
face=Arial
size=2>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anieuWFWe8s&feature=related</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2>> > > > >><BR>> > > > >>
Barrack Hussein Obama said that this question was above his pay<BR>> >
> > >> grade,<BR>> > > > >> but we all know he was
just avoiding the uncomfortable truth. That<BR>> > > > >>
"potential human" in the womb is a precious human life and Obama<BR>> >
> > >> should get on his knees every night and thank his maker that
his<BR>> > > > >> mother couldn't resort to Roe v. Wade to
kill him.<BR>> > > > >><BR>> > > > >> Part
of the daily fudge.<BR>> > > > >><BR>> > > >
>> =======================================================<BR>> >
> > >> List services made available by First Step
Internet,<BR>> > > > >> serving the communities of the
Palouse since 1994.<BR>> > > >
>>
</FONT><A href="http://www.fsr.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>http://www.fsr.net</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> > >
> >>
</FONT><A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
> > > >>
=======================================================<BR>> > > >
><BR>> > > > >
=======================================================<BR>> > > >
> List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>> > > >
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<BR>> > > >
>
</FONT><A href="http://www.fsr.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>http://www.fsr.net</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>> > >
> > </FONT><A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
> > > >
=======================================================<BR>> > >
><BR>> > > ><BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>>
><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
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