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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Too disjointed and too must error to respond. Feel
free to go with what you've got.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com
href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">Donovan Arnold</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=joekc@roadrunner.com
href="mailto:joekc@roadrunner.com">joekc@roadrunner.com</A> ; <A
title=jampot@roadrunner.com href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g.
crabtree</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, September 20, 2008 4:59
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers
& Barack Obama</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
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<DIV>Gary,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I don't think you understand that Liddy's actions did not start
with the Watergate break-in. Kiddy's crimes and conspiracies did not
stop and start with Watergate. Liddy was doing illegal wiretapping, and
other illegal crimes before then. Including sabotaging Muskie.
Muskie was discredited early in the campaign because of forged letters
written by Liddy's efforts and dirty tricks. Liddy knew Muskie was a
threat because what was discrediting him was a forgery. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Liddy proposed firebombing buildings, kidnapping, and many other
crimes against people. He was also responsible for the release of the
'Pentagon Papers." Many of his plans were rejected by the Nixon
administration. Liddy destroyed people, and their families. He was the
worst violator of people by any measure. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This guy was demented, and as a youth worshiped Hitler. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Messing with elections which impacts the outcome of a war is
killing people. Nothing theoretical about it. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What Liddy did was treason. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Best Regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Donovan</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR>--- On <B>Sat, 9/20/08, g. crabtree
<I><jampot@roadrunner.com></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From:
g. <SPAN>crabtree</SPAN> <jampot@roadrunner.com><BR>Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama<BR>To:
donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com, joekc@roadrunner.com<BR>Cc: "vision2020"
<vision2020@moscow.com><BR>Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008,
2:31 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=yiv953681981>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I am hesitant to
even respond but, just exactly which fact do you imagine I got
wrong? My assertions were:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>1. "Liddy headed up a failed break in at
the Watergate hotel." Fact</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>2. "McGovern wasn't a viable candidate."
Fact. Neither was Muskie after 4 March 1972 . The Watergate
break in attempt was on 17 June. All this being beside the point as I
didn't stipulate that the break in was to discredit either
one.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>3. "The break in did not alter the
outcome of the election." Fact The missions failure making this
rather obvious. If anything the news that republican dirty tricks were
being conducted should have been helpful to the democrat
candidate.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>4. "Both men were attempting to
circumvent the democratic process." Fact Seems kinda obvious don't you
think?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>5. "Only one was willing to risk lives."
Fact. There being no way to set off explosives wrapped in shrapnel
without the potential for loss of life. Ask Sgt. Brian V. McDonnell.
Oh yeah, you can't. One of those bombs killed him.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Which of those "facts" do you imagine is
incorrect?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com
href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>Donovan Arnold</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=joekc@roadrunner.com href="mailto:joekc@roadrunner.com"
target=_blank rel=nofollow>joekc@roadrunner.com</A> ; <A
title=jampot@roadrunner.com href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"
target=_blank rel=nofollow>g. crabtree</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=vision2020@moscow.com href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target=_blank rel=nofollow>vision2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, September 20,
2008 12:16 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Bill
Ayers & Barack Obama</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>
<DIV>Gary,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You are factually incorrect here.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"2. Ayers is worse than Liddy in that he recklessly
endangered lives and <BR>property while Liddy orchestrated a
failed break in. McGovern was never a <BR>viable candidate and
what occurred at the Watergate hotel did not alter the
<BR>outcome of the election in '72. Both men were attempting
to "circumvent<BR>the democratic process" but only one was
willing to risk the lives of those <BR>who had nothing to do
with his goals."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Nixon was not after McGovern, he was after Muskie. Muskie
was the leading candidate for the Democratic Nomination in
1972. McGovern was a dark horse who did well in caucuses.
Muskie was a serious threat to Nixon. Nixon had established at
Dirty Tricks Campaign against Muskie.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Subverting justice and attempting to rig a national
election is a very serious crime. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Best Regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Donovan</DIV>
<DIV><BR>--- On <B>Sat, 9/20/08, g. crabtree
<I><jampot@roadrunner.com></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From:
g. <SPAN><SPAN><SPAN>crabtree</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>
<jampot@roadrunner.com><BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
Bill Ayers & Barack Obama<BR>To:
joekc@roadrunner.com<BR>Cc: "vision2020"
<vision2020@moscow.com><BR>Date: Saturday, September
20, 2008, 7:20 AM<BR><BR><PRE> I disagree with your summary somewhat. I would modify it as follows:
1. What Ayers did was bad and what Liddy did was bad.
2. Ayers is worse than Liddy in that he recklessly endangered lives and
property while Liddy orchestrated a failed break in. McGovern was never a
viable candidate and what occurred at the Watergate hotel did not alter the
outcome of the election in '72. Both men were attempting to
"circumvent
the democratic process" but only one was willing to risk the lives of
those
who had nothing to do with his goals.
3. Neither is a major issue in the upcoming election but, you are judged by
the company you keep. Ayers is an unrepentant communist terrorist.
4. If Liddy is an issue (and, as you pointed out, he's not) Ayers still is.
He, along with Barry's other friends and mentors Frank Marshall Davis, Saul
Alinsky, Jeremiah Wright, etc. give us a major insight into what we can
expect from the anointed one and many, myself included, do not like what is
revealed.
g
----- Original Message -----
From: <joekc@roadrunner.com>
To: "g. crabtree" <jampot@roadrunner.com>
Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020@moscow.com>
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
Gary (if I may),
I'm sorry for suggesting that you don't know anything about American
history. It was a sarcastic
comment, a failed attempt at humor: "If you think that Nixon resigned
because of a botched
burglary, then ..."
Nonetheless, Liddy was not a "foot soldier." He was a chief
operative. Maybe
not a general (Nixon)
or a lieutenant (Dean) but not a private, more like a sergeant, like William
Cally. Certainly others
were perhaps more responsible, but weren't Cally and Liddy also responsible
for their actions?
Lastly, I'm not trying to suggest that McCain should "disassociate
himself
from the man." I believe
in redemption. I can wrap my head around the idea that Liddy is reformed.
I'm not asking McCain
to distance himself from Liddy (though were I running, I'd want to make it
clear that cheating is
not the American way).
You've forgotten about the initial thread. The point is that
Republican's
have been suggesting
that the Obama-Ayers connection is an issue. If you google "Obama Ayers
controversy" you get:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama–Ayers_controversy
But if you google "McCain Liddy controversy" there is no similar
wikipedia
listing. Or any listing
that deals with this "controversy" since it is not a controversy.
That was
the initial point of the
post, namely. that if the former is a controversy, then so should be the
latter.
I'm happy to say that McCain-and-Liddy is fine (though I find it odd that
someone who is running
for the presidency of the US doesn't distance himself from someone who has
tried to circumvent
the democratic process). But then what is all this hay about
Obama-and-Ayers?
To summarize:
1. Ayers is bad and Liddy is bad. (I'm not suggesting that Ayers is good.)
2. Liddy is worse than Ayers (one blew up buildings; the other was part of a
team that
succeeded in winning a presidential election, in part, by cheating).
3. Neither is an issue in the recent election, for guilt by association is a
fallacy.
4. If Ayers is an issue (and Republicans have made it an issue), then Liddy
is a bigger issue.
All the best, Joe
---- "g. crabtree" <jampot@roadrunner.com> wrote:
> I know a bit about American history and Watergate in particular. Are you
> trying to tell me that Watergate was all about G. Gordon Liddy? Liddy was
> a
> minor player in the Watergate scandal, a foot soldier who ended up bearing
> the brunt of the punishment for people above him. John Dean, A Watergate
> principal who has been held up on this forum as a man whose opinion is
> worthy of respectful consideration, had far more to do with Watergate and
> it's subsequent cover up then Liddy ever did. Liddy readily admitted
that
> he did the crime, he did the time, he paid his debt to society and has
> gone
> on to lead a decent life. That McCain should have to move heaven and earth
> to disassociate himself from the man seems unreasonable.
>
> g
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <joekc@roadrunner.com>
> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot@roadrunner.com>
> Cc: "vision2020" <vision2020@moscow.com>
> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
>
>
> > You are twisting the argument. No one is sticking up for Ayers. The
> > point
> > is that if Ayers matters
> > to Obama's reputation, Liddy should matter to McCain's.
Another point is
> > that, relatively speaking,
> > Ayers is not worse than Liddy and Liddy is not better than Ayers. I
> > think
> > Liddy is far worse.
> >
> > Watergate revealed a much deeper threat to American democracy. The
> > simple
> > fact is that Nixon
> > cheated in a broad number of ways. Cheated in winning the
presidential
> > election. Look up "Watergate," do a bit of research, and
learn something
> > about American history. Are you trying to
> > tell me that that Nixon resigned the presidency merely because of an
> > unsuccessful burglary?
> >
> > What does democracy stand for if not for fair elections for the
> > presidency
> > of the US, where the
> > people may be certain that the choice is the product of their will
and
> > not
> > the will of a select few?
> > Do you think that Barry Bonds deserves the home run king crown if it
> > turns
> > out that he took
> > steroids? No. He cheated. At the very least, Nixon cheated in his
second
> > presidential bid, cheated
> > in an election for the president of the US. He won unfairly and Liddy
> > helped.
> >
> > And Ayers did not get off scot free. The charges were dropped. Why?
> > Prosecutorial misconduct.
> >
> > --
> > Joe Campbell
> >
> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot@roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >> I guess since the argument being put forward is that Ayers should
be
> >> given a
> >> bye because he didn't really cause any harm, the same slack
needs to be
> >> granted to Mr. Liddy. After all, the Watergate break in was
> >> unsuccessful
> >> and
> >> the burglars (a fairly incompetent bunch) were all arrested. So,
since
> >> no
> >> presidential campaign was hijacked and no vote was taken out of
the
> >> hands
> >> of
> >> the people it seems to me that you are holding G.Gordon to a much
> >> higher
> >> standard. At the very least Ayers committed an act of gross
vandalism
> >> and
> >> reckless endangerment and got off Scot free. Liddy was complicit
in a
> >> failed
> >> break in and did five and a half years. He did the crime and he
did the
> >> time. Throwing in some silly disclaimer whenever his name comes
up
> >> seems
> >> as
> >> daft and unnecessary as saying "setting off bombs designed
to maximize
> >> injury and death in public places is a very, very bad thing.
> >>
> >> g
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: <joekc@roadrunner.com>
> >> To: "vision2020" <vision2020@moscow.com>
> >> Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 7:20 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> >>
> >>
> >> > What would be worse: a terrorist from another land blowing
up some
> >> > buildings or a terrorist from
> >> > another land hijacking a presidential campaign and ensuring
that one
> >> > candidate wins over
> >> > another? I think that hijacking a presidential campaign is
about the
> >> > worst
> >> > thing that anyone can
> >> > do in a democracy. I'm a bit shocked that not everyone
sees it this
> >> > way.
> >> > Like Donovan I'm no fan
> >> > of Ayers but to post anything on this topic without
condemning Liddy
> >> > seems
> >> > to be an insult to our
> >> > form of government. Why not at least throw in a "Oh, by
the way
> >> > taking
> >> > the
> >> > vote for president out
> >> > of the people and putting it into the hands of a few is a
very, very
> >> > bad
> >> > thing."
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Joe Campbell
> >> >
> >> > ---- "g. crabtree" <jampot@roadrunner.com>
wrote:
> >> >> Read what I wrote. I did not claim that he killed
anyone. I said
> >> >> that
> >> >> the
> >> >> act of setting off explosives wrapped in nails in public
places is
> >> >> akin
> >> >> to attempted murder. If I light your apartment building
on fire and,
> >> >> by
> >> >> the grace of God, no one is injured or killed am I
mearly guilty of
> >> >> failure to obtain a permit for an open burn?
> >> >>
> >> >> g
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: Donovan Arnold
> >> >> To: Andreas Schou ; vision2020 ; g. crabtree
> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 11:46 PM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack
Obama
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Gary,
> >> >>
> >> >> I don't condone the actions of Ayers. But he
never killed
> >> >> anyone.
> >> >> To say he did is an incorrect statement. If you can
demonstrate to
> >> >> me
> >> >> (an
> >> >> online article etc.) he killed someone, I will accept
your statement
> >> >> as
> >> >> fact. Otherwise, I say your judgment and understanding
on this
> >> >> matter
> >> >> is
> >> >> deeply in question.
> >> >>
> >> >> Best Regards,
> >> >>
> >> >> Donovan
> >> >>
> >> >> --- On Wed, 9/17/08, g. crabtree
<jampot@roadrunner.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> From: g. crabtree
<jampot@roadrunner.com>
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers &
Barack Obama
> >> >> To: donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com,
"Andreas Schou"
> >> >> <ophite@gmail.com>, "vision2020"
<vision2020@moscow.com>
> >> >> Date: Wednesday, September 17, 2008, 5:30 AM
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> "Are you insinuating that Bill Ayers
tried to kill
> >> >> people?"
> >> >>
> >> >> No, I am not insinuating I am saying it flat
out. Placing
> >> >> anti
> >> >> personnel bombs in public places is attempted murder.
When the
> >> >> vermin
> >> >> in
> >> >> Baghdad or Sader City or Fallujah set of IED's they
don't know the
> >> >> names
> >> >> of those they are attempting to murder and maim. Is it
your
> >> >> contention
> >> >> that they are not trying to kill people?
> >> >>
> >> >> g
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: Donovan Arnold
> >> >> To: Andreas Schou ; vision2020 ; g. crabtree
> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 1:42 AM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers &
Barack Obama
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> "No small accomplishment. Oh
yeah, he has never
> >> >> attempted to slaughter soldiers and police via the
cowardly practice
> >> >> of
> >> >> hiding and detonating explosives wrapped in nails."
> >> >>
> >> >> Are you insinuating that Bill Ayers
tried to kill
> >> >> people? I am no fan of Ayers. But I think you are off
base saying he
> >> >> killed, or even attempted to kill people. If you think
this, please
> >> >> provide us with the names of people Ayers attempted to
kill, or who
> >> >> he
> >> >> killed.
> >> >>
> >> >> The people that McCain worked for
between 1979 and
> >> >> 1992
> >> >> harmed more people than Ayers.
> >> >>
> >> >> Best Regards,
> >> >>
> >> >> Donovan
> >> >>
> >> >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, g. crabtree
> >> >> <jampot@roadrunner.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> From: g. crabtree
<jampot@roadrunner.com>
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers
& Barack
> >> >> Obama
> >> >> To: "Andreas Schou"
<ophite@gmail.com>,
> >> >> "vision2020"
> >> >> <vision2020@moscow.com>
> >> >> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008,
7:24 PM
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> So what's your problem with the G-Man? The guy did
his time in
> >> >> anything
> >> >> but
> >> >> country club conditions until your hero, James Earl
Carter, commuted
> >> >> his
> >> >> sentence. He never ratted out his associates and
he's managed to
> >> >> support
> >> >> himself and his family as an ex-con. No small
accomplishment. Oh
> >> >> yeah,
> >> >> he
> >> >> has never attempted to slaughter soldiers and police via
the
> >> >> cowardly
> >> >> practice of hiding and detonating explosives wrapped in
nails. All
> >> >> things
> >> >> considered, I know that I would much rather associate
with a man who
> >> >> served
> >> >> his time and was released from prison than an
unrepentant attempted
> >> >> murderer
> >> >> whose only regret is that he couldn't cause more
carnage and mayhem.
> >> >> Of
> >> >> course that's just me.
> >> >>
> >> >> g
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "Andreas Schou" <ophite@gmail.com>
> >> >> To: "vision2020" <vision2020@moscow.com>
> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 6:32 PM
> >> >> Subject: [Vision2020] Bill Ayers & Barack Obama
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > They both knew each other. They were both appointed
to co-chair an
> >> >> > education panel by Mayor Daley, and the prior state
Senator from
> >> >> > Obama's seat introduced him at Bill Ayers'
house. No large,
> >> >> ongoing
> >> >> > connection. But here's the thing:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Why isn't John McCain's friendship with G.
Gordon Liddy a campaign
> >> >> > issue? Is there any defensible reason for treating
Liddy like a
> >> >> > rehabilitated member of the community, rather than
as a threat to
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > Republic? If so, why?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > -- ACS
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
=======================================================
> >> >> > List services made available by First Step
Internet,
> >> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> >> > http://www.fsr.net
> >> >> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
> >> >> >
=======================================================
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> =======================================================
> >> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
> >> >> =======================================================
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> =======================================================
> >> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> >> http://www.fsr.net
> >> >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
> >> >> =======================================================
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > =======================================================
> >> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> >> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >> > http://www.fsr.net
> >> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
> >> > =======================================================
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
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