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Just one more thought, Paul, and that's this -- bad theology leads to bad practice. If, for example, you are a pastor and can convince your flock that "the Bible teaches <span style="font-style: italic;">this,</span>" they will act accordingly. And if it doesn't, their actions will be opposed to the will or plan of their God.<br><br>An example, not from Moscow, is the way evangelical theologians have redefined the Trinity to assert that Jesus is eternally subordinate to the Father. That's a heresy, but why should anyone care? Well, because the argument goes like this: If Jesus, who is "of the same substance" as God the Father, nonetheless is subordinate to him in function and role, then women, "of the same substance" as men, are also subordinate to them in function and role. They're the same, in a sense, but yet somehow always subordinate. The danger of this line of thinking is, I think, well established. Is it the only reason some men are sexists? No. But it certainly gives the appearance of theological maturity and philosophical gravitas, no matter how wrong it is and has been since the Arians posited the same idea in the first couple of centuries after Christ.<br><br>Not at all coincidentally, the biggest supporters and defenders of Trinitarian subordinationism are those who call for women's complete subordination to men, following the Reformed theologians of the last century who believed that slaves' subordination was entirely defensible. And that leads us back to . . . Moscow, where men are men, women are women, and slaveholders needn't have felt too feel bad about it.<br><br>Keely<br><br> <br><br><br><br><br>> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:36:36 -0700<br>> From: godshatter@yahoo.com<br>> To: suehovey@moscow.com<br>> CC: kjajmix1@msn.com; london@moscow.com; vision2020@moscow.com<br>> Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [Vision2020] [Bulk] in a better world ...<br>> <br>> OK. I guess I just don't see the threat. The only harm I see them <br>> doing is convincing some people to believe some absurd stuff, at least <br>> from my perspective. If it's mainly a theological fight, I'll stay <br>> completely out of it. Neither side likely agrees with what I believe in <br>> anyway.<br>> <br>> Paul<br>> <br>> Sue Hovey wrote:<br>> > Paul,<br>> > <br>> > I'm with Bill and Keely on this one. And I appreciate that someone is <br>> > willing to take on Doug Wilson. Locally, it's Keely and others; <br>> > nationally it's Morris Dees and SPLC. Does their response play into <br>> > Doug's hands as you say? Possibly, even probably; but silence is <br>> > never an appropriate response to harm. <br>> ><br>> > ----- Original Message -----<br>> > *From:* keely emerinemix <mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com><br>> > *To:* Paul Rumelhart <mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com> ; Bill London<br>> > <mailto:london@moscow.com><br>> > *Cc:* vision2020@moscow.com <mailto:vision2020@moscow.com><br>> > *Sent:* Sunday, July 27, 2008 8:51 PM<br>> > *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] [Bulk] in a better world ...<br>> ><br>> > Paul, I agree with you -- Wilson is not likely to "take over"<br>> > Moscow, not by coup, not by open warfare, not by legislation. We<br>> > do have a Constitution to prevent such things, no matter what his<br>> > postmillennial dominion theology posits and no matter how elevated<br>> > the putative "Bishop" of Moscow presumes himself to be.<br>> ><br>> > But here's where we part ways.<br>> ><br>> > I am a Christian. Wilson says he is; in fact, he is the most<br>> > well-known pastor in town, has enormous influence over his poor<br>> > flock, and is able to insinuate himself into politics, real estate<br>> > and law in ways that seem disproportionate to his standing as a<br>> > largely self-educated, self-accredited, self-made man of the<br>> > cloth. Only God knows Wilson's heart, and while the Scriptures he<br>> > and I claim to adhere to invite us to determine the genuineness of<br>> > someone's faith by examining his or her fruit -- the good works,<br>> > conduct, and results of ministry -- I would really rather not<br>> > hazard a guess. It's enough for me to say that he's a bigot, an<br>> > opportunist, a contemptible bully and a snake of a man. I think<br>> > I've not been at all shy on making that point.<br>> ><br>> > So why should I care? There are loimg20080731070457941ts of bad<br>> > men and women in Moscow, right? Of course there are. But no<br>> > other man that I'm aware of represents the Gospel and person of<br>> > Jesus Christ as horribly as does Doug Wilson, and that's what<br>> > counts for me. You see, I believe that the most important<br>> > question any of us will ever have to deal with is "what do we do<br>> > with Christ ?" If nonbelievers come to think that Jesus Christ is<br>> > as Doug portrays him, and that the Christian faith is nothing more<br>> > than a bully stick to be wielded in one hand while hoisting fine<br>> > wine and cigars in another, stiff middle finger raised to the<br>> > community, they might shy away from trying to know about, and<br>> > eventually coming to know, Him. Further, on their own, his<br>> > comments are ugly, hurtful, and overwhelmingly not in accord with<br>> > Scripture. He hurts people, Paul, and he does it in the name of<br>> > Christ. As a Christ-disciple, I can't sit idly by. <br>> ><br>> > My father-in-law is very active in Rotary, and he occasionally<br>> > grumps about "bad" Rotarians who don't follow the rules and don't<br>> > represent Rotary in its classic, historical, civic-minded sense. <br>> > And I guess I'd care if I were a Rotarian. But most of us agree<br>> > that people who dishonor and misrepresent Rotary will have to<br>> > answer to no one higher than its local Board, while people --<br>> > pastors! -- who dishonor and misrepresent Christianity will have<br>> > to answer to One higher still. Further, Doug Wilson delights in<br>> > behaving badly, and even if every single soul in Moscow and<br>> > throughout the country somehow knew that he was getting it wrong,<br>> > way wrong, the content of what he says is damaging by its own<br>> > measure. <br>> ><br>> > I try, and fail, and try again to reprimg20080731070457941esent<br>> > the Lord Jesus well, to live out my verbal proclamation of the<br>> > Gospel, and to extend grace and charity to those who disagree (did<br>> > I mention that I often fail?). I don't always get it right, but<br>> > it matters to me that no one would ever be turned away from Christ<br>> > because I behaved like a total ass in His name. Quite often,<br>> > people write me off list, or call me, or stop me on the street to<br>> > ask me about the Gospel, or challenge me with something in the<br>> > Bible, or thank me for speaking out. I think that's a good thing;<br>> > I think I haven't made Christianity odious to anyone. But to sit<br>> > back, like our brave male pastors here in town, and watch this man<br>> > smear the Gospel of Christ with the dung of reckless contempt is<br>> > not possible for me. I may someday be the only one, but I'll<br>> > fight all the more. <br>> ><br>> > I love my town and its people, and I love Christ. I even love, by<br>> > decision if not emotion, Doug Wilson. If he needed a kidney and I<br>> > were a match, I'd offer it to him. But I'll be damned if I'm<br>> > going to just cluck to myself that he's "being Doug again, darn<br>> > it," and then go my merry way. I've devoted my adult life to<br>> > justice, service, preaching, and speaking out for the Gospel. <br>> > What message do I have to proclaim if I avoid the hard stuff, the<br>> > stuff that presents the most odious challenge to the Gospel on the<br>> > Palouse? My faith, as I've said before, requires that I be kind. <br>> > It doesn't require that I be nice, and "nice" isn't called for here.<br>> ><br>> > Bad theology results in bad practice, and scores of Kirkers, past<br>> > and present, know the sting of this shepherds heavy-handed,<br>> > bitterly raised rod. They feel they have no voice, but I do. He<br>> > may not be Hitler, or Jim Jones, or Caligula, or even Billy<br>> > Sunday. He is what he is, though, and what he does and says and<br>> > teaches and demonstrates is bad enough on its own, because it<br>> > mocks and maligns the character of my Savior. <br>> ><br>> > It's worth the fight, every day, 'til the Kirk collapses and a<br>> > remnant of Spirit-led believers rises up, or 'til I die. I really<br>> > have no concern for the order in which those things happen, Paul,<br>> > because at the end, I'll be able to stand before God and say I did<br>> > the right thing. In this case, it ain't winning or losing that<br>> > matters -- it's showing up for the battle.<br>> ><br>> > I appreciate the respect with which you disagree with me and hope<br>> > you can understand,<br>> ><br>> > Keely<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > > Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 15:11:18 -0700<br>> > > From: godshatter@yahoo.com<br>> > > To: london@moscow.com<br>> > > CC: kjajmix1@msn.com; vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Bulk] img20080731070457941in a better<br>> > world ...<br>> > ><br>> > > Does he have a white cat that he pets while laughing maniacally?<br>> > ><br>> > > Seriously, how plausible do you think that scenario is? The<br>> > worst I see<br>> > > happening is we get a few more libertarians on the city council,<br>> > a few<br>> > > more stores become owned by members of the Kirk, and Trinity Fest<br>> > > doubles in size.<br>> > ><br>> > > Keely is free to do her own blog. I even respect her for caring<br>> > about<br>> > > something enough to blog about it. I just think you're all going<br>> > about<br>> > > this the wrong way. You're making Doug Wilson into Dr. Evil or<br>> > Ernst<br>> > > Blofeld or whatever crazy mad villain you like best.<br>> > ><br>> > > I don't see the signs that should be worrying me here. I don't<br>> > see a<br>> > > compound where only Christ Church members can live in such a way<br>> > that<br>> > > they are kept away from their families. I don't see them<br>> > stockpiling<br>> > > guns and ammo and running drimg20080731070457941ills like the<br>> > crazy Montanans do. I don't<br>> > > see anybody forced to give up more than the 10% of their wages<br>> > other<br>> > > religions demand of their followers. I don't see anyone refusing<br>> > > medical help for their children, dressing funny, or protesting<br>> > > businesses. I don't even see any crazy beliefs that aren't any<br>> > crazier<br>> > > than any other Christian beliefs that stem from a too-literal<br>> > > interpretation of the Bible.<br>> > ><br>> > > Whether or not they are misinterpreting the Bible, I have no<br>> > idea. But<br>> > > I think that most of us in Moscow are free from their evil clutches.<br>> > ><br>> > > Besides which, as I understand it, they are actually free to<br>> > believe<br>> > > whatever nonsense they're currently spouting.<br>> > ><br>> > > Paul<br>> > ><br>> > > Bill London wrote:<br>> > > > I side with Keely on this issue.<br>> > > > Doug Wilson has a political agenda. He wants to remake Moscow and<br>> > > > this region into his own theocratic fiefdom.<br>> > > > Exposing Wilson's agenda and his ideas is what will counter and<br>> > > > ultimately derail his plan.<br>> > > > BL<br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>> > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Rumelhart"<br>> > > > <godshatter@yahoo.com><br>> > > > To: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1@msn.com><br>> > > > Cc: <vision2020@moscow.com><br>> > > > Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 5:26 PM<br>> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Bulk] in a better world ...<br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>> > > >> I've said it before, but I'll go ahead and say it one more<br>> > time. You're<br>> > > >> giving him too much power. The proper response, in my<br>> > opinion, is to<br>> > > >> just point at him and laugh when he makes a comment like that<br>> > in the<br>> > > >> future.<br>> > > >><br>> > > >> I respect what you're doing, but every blog post you make<br>> > will just give<br>> > > >> him credibility to those who already think he walks on water.<br>> > > >><br>> > > >> Paul<br>> > > >><br>> > > >> keely emerinemix wrote:<br>> > > >>><br>> > > >>> Visionaires,<br>> > > >>><br>> > > >>> Never would I have thought that I would live in a community<br>> > whose most<br>> > > >>> well-known and powerful pastor, one who claims to be a<br>> > Trinitarian<br>> > > >>> Christian and a Bible teacher, would behave in the hostile,<br>> > hateful,<br>> > > >>> and horrendous manner that Douglas Wilson of Christ Church has.<br>> > > >>> During my six and a half years of living in Moscow and<br>> > loving it, I<br>> > > >>> have been beyond dismayed at his theology, teaching, and<br>> > engagement<br>> > > >>> with the community, and I've learned not to be surprised<br>> > > >>> img20080726183626428at what comes from his pen or out of his<br>> > mouth.<br>> > > >>> But I find that he yet has the ability to shock me, owing<br>> > more to his<br>> > > >>> crass conduct than to my naivete, and this morning offers<br>> > another<br>> > > >>> example.<br>> > > >>><br>> > > >>> In a column bashing Pastor Greg Boyd's new book on the<br>> > idolatry of<br>> > > >>> Christians in claiming the United States as a "Christian<br>> > nation," and<br>> > > >>> throwing themselves into politics in an attempt to make the<br>> > kingdom of<br>> > > >>> God right here, right now, Wilson complains that Boyd has no<br>> > basis,<br>> > > >>> then, for judging anything to be wrong. His serrated edge<br>> > flashing,<br>> > > >>> he says that, for example, if he told Boyd his church spent<br>> > last night<br>> > > >>> "lynching homos -- you shoulda been there!", Boyd couldn't<br>> > reasonably<br>> > > >>> object.<br>> > > >>><br>> > > >>> Boyd won't, because Wilson's pontificating has, thankfully,<br>> > a limited<br>> > > >>> audience. But I can, and img20080731070457941I do. In fact,<br>> > my 15-year-old son<br>> > > >>> Jimg20080726183626428onah and I both responded to Wilson on<br>> > his Blog<br>> > > >>> and Mablog, and while my son responded to the church/state<br>> > issue, I'm<br>> > > >>> as proud of him as I am embarrassed, once again, by the man<br>> > who would<br>> > > >>> like to be thought of as the Bishop of the Palouse. I invite<br>> > you to<br>> > > >>> read my comments there. If not, let me state in the most<br>> > concrete way<br>> > > >>> that I can:<br>> > > >>><br>> > > >>> For a pastor to make a point, any point, by using "lynching<br>> > homos" as<br>> > > >>> an example, one of hyperbole and excess, is despicable,<br>> > particularly<br>> > > >>> given the virulent homophobia Wilson has espoused. And for<br>> > none of<br>> > > >>> his readers to complain is, while predictable, most<br>> > disappointing. In<br>> > > >>> a perfect world, or even a mildly better one, other<br>> > Christians would<br>> > > >>> howl in protest, rebuking Wilson immediately and publicly.<br>> > It ain't<br>> > > >>> that kind of world, though. And, hesitant church leadership<br>> > > >>> notwithstanding, it's frankly just as sad to me that many of<br>> > you don't<br>> > > >>> want to comment, object, or even know -- and wish I would<br>> > just shut up<br>> > > >>> about the whole thing.<br>> > > >>><br>> > > >>> Sorry, but I can't do it. What I can and will do, however,<br>> > is begin<br>> > > >>> my own very publicized, very pointed blog devoted to<br>> > defending the<br>> > > >>> Gospel by correcting bad theology both within the Kirk and<br>> > from other<br>> > > >>> sources. I don't know what to call it yet, and I don't know<br>> > how to<br>> > > >>> design it, but I intend to never let up 'til the day I die . . .<br>> > > >>><br>> > > >>> The stakes for our community are high, higher than most Moscow<br>> > > >>> residents realize. But the stakes are even higher for the<br>> > message of<br>> > > >>> peace and reconciliation, justice and love, spoken and lived<br>> > by the<br>> > > >>> Lord Jesus Christ and sullied by Wilson, et al. If Christ means<br>> > > >>> anything to me, I can certainly endure the scorn of my<br>> > neighbors and<br>> > > >>> the mocking of the boys at the Kirk by writing against them.<br>> > I'll<br>> > > >>> still write on Vision, and still write about Christ Church<br>> > as relevant<br>> > > >>> to the discussion, but the content of my blog will be<br>> > theology, gender<br>> > > >>> and peace-and-justice issues, and scathing critique of those<br>> > who spew<br>> > > >>> bigotry in the name of Christ.<br>> > > >>><br>> > > >>> As a stay-at-home mom with a fairly useless BA from a<br>> > quarter-century<br>> > > >>> ago, I may be "just a housewife" to some at the Kirk -- but<br>> > if I am a<br>> > > >>> housewife, I am a thundering one, and I can't be silent.<br>> > > >>><br>> > > >>> Keely<br>> > > >>> img20080727165249934<br>> > > >>><br>> > > >>><br>> > > >>><br>> > > >>><br>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> ><br>> > > >>><br>> > > >>> With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you.<br>> > Connect<br>> > > >>> on the go.<br>> > > >>><br>> > <http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mobile_072008><br>> ><br>> > > >>><br>> > > >>><br>> > > >>><br>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> ><br>> > > >>><br>> > > >>><br>> > > >>> =======================================================<br>> > > >>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> > > >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> > > >>> http://www.fsr.net<br>> > > >>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > >>> =======================================================<br>> > > >><br>> > > >><br>> > > >> =======================================================<br>> > > >> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> > > >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> > > >> http://www.fsr.net<br>> > > >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > >> =======================================================<br>> > > >><br>> > > >><br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>> > > ><br>> > ><br>> > ><br>> ><br>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> > Time for vacation? WIN what you need. Enter Now!<br>> > <http://www.gowindowslive.com/summergiveaway/?ocid=tag_jlyhm><br>> ><br>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> > =======================================================<br>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> > http://www.fsr.net <br>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > =======================================================<br>> ><br>> <br>> <br><br /><hr />Time for vacation? WIN what you need. <a href='http://www.gowindowslive.com/summergiveaway/?ocid=tag_jlyhm' target='_new'>Enter Now!</a></body>
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