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<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">You can find thousands of examples of people
coming from loving environments, with all the advantages thereof, and yet you
can find them in prisons and shelters around the country.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">For many, many of them somewhere along
the line, the choice to use/abuse drugs/alcohol was made. Yes, Keely, it was a
CHOICE for many of them.</FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Tahoma">
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com">keely emerinemix</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, July 30, 2008 12:55 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=editor@lataheagle.com
href="mailto:editor@lataheagle.com">Kai Eiselein, Editor</A> ; <A
title=sunilramalingam@hotmail.com
href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">Sunil Ramalingam</A> ; <A
title="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] FW: The Nation, 6/30/08</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>And how many make the choice to abuse drugs or alcohol when
presented with a host of other opportunities? Do people -- generally
speaking -- choose to degrade themselves and harm their bodies when they have
abundant love, warm affection, genuine acceptance, undying support from friends
and family, a wide door thrown open to them leading to education,
self-improvement, meaningful, sustaining work, and a palette on which beauty can
easily be painted?<BR><BR>To go on . . . do the sex workers Sunil might have to
defend come from environments that nurtured them, supported them, taught them
that their sexuality was a precious gift, and demonstrated sacrificial love at
most every turn? Are they hopscotching over exciting career opportunities,
good health, warm and mutually-giving relationships, horizon-expanding
educations and hope for their futures, just so they can pilot themselves into
situations that dehumanize them, put them at risk of their lives every day, and
earn them the scorn and condemnation from those who would never, EVER, make that
choice themselves ? <BR><BR>Did my dear friend T.J., back in the late 70s
and early 80s, decide that her life was going so well, her heart so full of love
and security, hope and promise, that it'd be fun to play prostitute, mainline
heroin, and spend much of her life in prisons both in and out of the State
system? <BR><BR>With all due respect, Kai, I think it's easy for those of
us who do see open doors to good things ahead of us reduce to mere "choice" the
abuse people heap upon themselves. And for those of us who had it pretty
good and screwed up a lot anyway -- back all those years ago -- is it possible
that "there but for the grace of God go I" might
apply?<BR><BR>Keely<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR>
From: editor@lataheagle.com<BR>To: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com;
vision2020@moscow.com<BR>Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:19:57 -0700<BR>Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] FW: The Nation, 6/30/08<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">How many of your appointed clients made the
choice to abuse drugs or alcohol?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Tahoma; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(245,245,245); -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial">
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=sunilramalingam@hotmail.com
href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">Sunil Ramalingam</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, July 30, 2008 12:12 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] FW: The Nation, 6/30/08</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I don't want to take anything away from Dave Thomas or Jack
Simplot in terms of their ability to thrive in our economy, particularly if they
didn't grow up with any of the advantages of coming from a wealthy family.
But if I recall correctly, Bill Gates is the son of a corporate lawyer.
Obviously he's also smart and very driven, but I think it's fair to say that
growing up upper-middle class or upper class gives a person tools and advantages
in our society.<BR><BR>Both my parents have post-baccalaureate degrees, and I
think all of my grandparents did too, and some of their parents as well.
Even though I spent most of my youth whizzing away - or trying to - the
headstart that gave me in life, I was still able to recover from my own
stupidity. I'm far from rich, but I'm also far from where my
appointed clients are.<BR><BR>Sunil<BR><BR>> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:54:19
-0700<BR>> From: lfalen@turbonet.com<BR>> To: editor@lataheagle.com;
lcavener@vandals.uidaho.edu; vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] FW: The Nation, 6/30/08<BR>> <BR>> You are absolutely right.
JacK Simplot is another good example. He had a third grade education and started
with nothing. Through his ingenuity and hard word he became one of the richest
men in Idaho.<BR>> Roger<BR>> -----Original message-----<BR>> From:
"Kai Eiselein, Editor" editor@lataheagle.com<BR>> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008
09:51:25 -0700<BR>> To: "Levi Cavener" lcavener@vandals.uidaho.edu,
vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] FW: The Nation,
6/30/08<BR>> <BR>> > Education, in itself, is not an indicator of
future wealth.<BR>> > I believe "drive" is a far better predictor. Dave
Thomas, founder of Wendy's, was a high school drop out, Bill Gates is a college
drop out. The list can go on and on.<BR>> > Most "new" millionaires aren't
in suit and tie professions, they are in the service trades; plumbers,
electricians, contractors, that sort of thing.<BR>> > Using your statement
of "better" schools, I shouldn't be able to read or write very well. I should be
working a menial job somewhere, solely because I went to school in one of the
poorest school districts in Arizona and I didn't finish college. Santa Cruz
County is the smallest, and, at that time anyway, the poorest county in the
state. The city of Nogales consistently has one of the highest unemployment
rates in the nation. Drug and alcohol use in school was rampant (I had teachers
who came to class stoned), crime was high, gangs were around, although not as
prevalent as they are now. (I'm sure Keely could add comments on the view
people/students in Tucson took on Nogales.)<BR>> > I'm not rich by any
means, but I'm not dirt poor either.<BR>> > People who have made their own
wealth have one thing in common, the willingness to put in very long hours, to
take risks, to think outside of the norm and to doggedness to overcome
obstacles.<BR>> > You rarely ever see them say "Poor me", even when they
fail.<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > From: Levi Cavener <BR>> >
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 9:10 AM<BR>> > To: vision2020@moscow.com
<BR>> > Subject: [Vision2020] FW: The Nation, 6/30/08<BR>> >
<BR>> > <BR>> > "My premise is that most of those who were "haves"
before the distribution <BR>> > > would manage to accumulate wealth,
becoming "haves" again.<BR>> > > Of those who were "have nots" before
the distribution, most would become <BR>> > > "have nots"
again."<BR>> > <BR>> > But think about the reason why the previously
wealthy would once again become wealthy. Before the redistribution the wealthy
could afford whatever tools they needed (including tools for their children)
such as access to better schools (I'm not dismissing the public school system,
just saying that an elite private school is likely to produce a better education
than the public system could), access to higher and continuing education for
both themselves and their children, as well as previous on the job experience
and knowledge for jobs that pay more such as experience in being a CEO of a
company. Compare this in contrast to the previous "have-nots" who hypothetically
just had wealth redistributed. Upon the redistribution they have no tools or
background experience to advance from aside from working a low level job in the
service industry. Even if they were to pursue the tools they need to get a job
that pays more than the job they previous had by such means as getting
an<BR>> education or internships they already start at a disadvantage because
the previously wealthy already possess all these tools. As a result the previous
"have-nots" have to play catchup with the previously wealthy - they are the
tortoise in the race of wealth and can only win if the wealthy (hares) make a
mistake that allows them to catch up or pass them. Assuming this hypothetical
wealth redistribution did occur, who would you expect to become wealthy again? A
CEO of a fortune 500 company or a person who has been flipping burgers? Just a
thought.<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > ~Esto
Perpetua<BR>> > <BR>> > Levi Cavener<BR>> > <BR>> >
<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> >
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>
> > From: editor@lataheagle.com<BR>> > > To:
sslund_2007@verizon.net; lfalen@turbonet.com; kjajmix1@msn.com;
vision2020@moscow.com; thansen@moscow.com<BR>> > > Date: Tue, 29 Jul
2008 13:07:37 -0700<BR>> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Nation,
6/30/08<BR>> > > <BR>> > > As usual, Tom, fails to grasp the
conversation and tries comparing apples to <BR>> > > oranges.<BR>>
> > I will simplify it for him.<BR>> > > Tom, a complete wealth
distribution would begin with everyone on equal <BR>> > > financial
footing. Over time, the finances of some would improve while for <BR>> >
> others it would decline.<BR>> > > My premise is that most of those
who were "haves" before the distribution <BR>> > > would manage to
accumulate wealth, becoming "haves" again.<BR>> > > Of those who were
"have nots" before the distribution, most would become <BR>> > > "have
nots" again.<BR>> > > It is a completely different scenario than your
"stimulus check" example, in <BR>> > > which there is no "equal
footing" financially.<BR>> > > <BR>> > > Got it?<BR>> >
> <BR>> > >
--------------------------------------------------<BR>> > > From: "Tom
Hansen" <thansen@moscow.com><BR>> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 29,
2008 12:36 PM<BR>> > > To: <editor@lataheagle.com>;
<sslund_2007@verizon.net>; <BR>> > > <lfalen@turbonet.com>;
<kjajmix1@msn.com>; <vision2020@moscow.com><BR>> > >
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Nation, 6/30/08<BR>> > > <BR>> >
> > By Kai's commentary, the stimulus checks distributed these past few
months<BR>> > > > must have created one MAJOR spark in the
economy.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > Surprise, Kai. It has
been shown by surveys and a multitude of analyses<BR>> > > > that
the "have nots" have used their stimulus checks on such frivolous<BR>> >
> > items as food, rent, and bills, while the "haves" . . . well . . .
you<BR>> > > > know.<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >
Your thoughts?<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > Tom Hansen<BR>>
> > > Moscow, Idaho<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >>
Human nature is human nature.<BR>> > > >> Chances are, most of
the "have nots" would blow their windfall<BR>> > > >
purchasing<BR>> > > >> things they could have never afforded
before.<BR>> > > >> Without thinking of the future, many people
would blow right through it.<BR>> > > >> Once gone, they would
wind up selling many of the things they purchased<BR>> > > >>
because they didn't save any of it for neccesities.<BR>> > > >>
Many of the "haves" would see opportunities and try to make the most of<BR>>
> > >> their windfall, gaining wealth.<BR>> > > >> It
has nothing to do with the "worst" or "best" in humans. It's just the<BR>>
> > > way<BR>> > > >> it is.<BR>> > >
>><BR>> > > >>
--------------------------------------------------<BR>> > > >>
From: "Saundra Lund" <sslund_2007@verizon.net><BR>> > > >>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 11:51 AM<BR>> > > >> To: "'Kai
Eiselein, Editor'" <editor@lataheagle.com>; "'lfalen'"<BR>> > >
>> <lfalen@turbonet.com>; "'keely emerinemix'"
<kjajmix1@msn.com>;<BR>> > > >>
<vision2020@moscow.com><BR>> > > >> Subject: RE:
[Vision2020] The Nation, 6/30/08<BR>> > > >><BR>> > >
>> > Yes, of course I read it -- did you read the 6/30 The Nation
issue<BR>> > > > Keely<BR>> > > >> > mentioned in
starting this topic?<BR>> > > >> ><BR>> > > >>
> I disagree with the hypothetical conclusion in your hypothetical<BR>>
> > > scenario.<BR>> > > >> > I also don't agree with
the inherent assumption of the worst of<BR>> > > > humans --<BR>>
> > >> > you sound almost Hobbesian. Sorry for not making that
clear. To<BR>> > > > expand .<BR>> > > >> >
.<BR>> > > >> > .<BR>> > > >> ><BR>> >
> >> > I think the odds are good that in a wealth redistribution
that some of<BR>> > > > the<BR>> > > >> > "have
nots" would cherish the change, manage the money well, and truly<BR>> >
> >> > remember from whence they came. In a wealth redistribution, I
think<BR>> > > > the<BR>> > > >> > odds are good
some of the previous "haves" would have no eye to the<BR>> > > >
future<BR>> > > >> > and would soon be penniless . . . and
need assistance.<BR>> > > >> ><BR>> > > >> >
The difference in my hypothetical scenario & yours is that there are<BR>>
> > > so<BR>> > > >> > many<BR>> > >
>> > more "have nots" than "haves" that the eventual distribution of
the<BR>> > > >> > redistribution would be better for the
greater good and a net gain in<BR>> > > >> > quality of life
for more. I'm not willing to assume the worst in a<BR>> > > >>
> hypothetical based on the self-serving historical behavior of some
of<BR>> > > > the<BR>> > > >> > "haves" and their
failure to consider a common good and their fellow<BR>> > > >>
> countrymen.<BR>> > > >> ><BR>> > > >> >
I like to think we'd have no need to redistribute wealth if we each<BR>> >
> > helped<BR>> > > >> > our sisters and brothers,
mothers and fathers, daughters and sons to<BR>> > > >> >
improve<BR>> > > >> > their lots in life to the best of our
abilities rather than just what<BR>> > > > we<BR>> > >
>> > think they deserve. Nor would we likely need government safety
nets<BR>> > > > for<BR>> > > >> > so<BR>> >
> >> > many of our unfortunate were it not for the greed of the
"haves."<BR>> > > >> ><BR>> > > >> >
Altruistic Pollyanna is a name I'm far more comfortable wearing than<BR>>
> > > Cynic<BR>> > > >> > Assuming Greed Trumps
Good.<BR>> > > >> ><BR>> > > >> ><BR>>
> > >> > -----Original Message-----<BR>> > > >>
> From: Kai Eiselein, Editor [mailto:editor@lataheagle.com]<BR>> > >
>> > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 11:01 AM<BR>> > > >>
> To: Saundra Lund; 'lfalen'; 'keely emerinemix';
vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> > > >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
The Nation, 6/30/08<BR>> > > >> ><BR>> > > >>
> Did you or did you not read my hypothetical scenario?<BR>> > >
>> ><BR>> > > >> >
--------------------------------------------------<BR>> > > >>
> From: "Saundra Lund" <sslund_2007@verizon.net><BR>> > >
>> > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 10:56 AM<BR>> > > >>
> To: "'Kai Eiselein, Editor'" <editor@lataheagle.com>;
"'lfalen'"<BR>> > > >> > <lfalen@turbonet.com>; "'keely
emerinemix'" <kjajmix1@msn.com>;<BR>> > > >> >
<vision2020@moscow.com><BR>> > > >> > Subject: RE:
[Vision2020] The Nation, 6/30/08<BR>> > > >> ><BR>> >
> >> >> Kai wrote:<BR>> > > >> >> "I would
venture to hypothesize this: If wealth were distributed<BR>> > > >
equally<BR>> > > >> >> to<BR>> > > >>
>> every person, it would only be a matter of time before there would
be<BR>> > > > the<BR>> > > >> >> "haves" and
"have nots" once again."<BR>> > > >> >><BR>> > >
>> >> Good grief -- what do you mean "once again"?!?! That's how
things<BR>> > > > are<BR>> > > >> >>
now<BR>> > > >> ><BR>> > > >> >>
.<BR>> > > >> >> . . hello!<BR>> > > >>
>><BR>> > > >> >><BR>> > > >> >>
Saundra Lund<BR>> > > >> >> Moscow, ID<BR>> > >
>> >><BR>> > > >> >> The only thing necessary
for the triumph of evil is for good people<BR>> > > > to do<BR>>
> > >> >> nothing.<BR>> > > >> >> ~
Edmund Burke<BR>> > > >> >><BR>> > > >>
>> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008
through<BR>> > > > life<BR>> > > >> >>
plus<BR>> > > >> >> 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy,
forward, excerpt, or reproduce<BR>> > > >> >>
outside<BR>> > > >> >> the Vision 2020 forum without the
express written permission of the<BR>> > > >> >>
author.*****<BR>> > > >> >><BR>> > > >>
>><BR>> > > >> >><BR>> > > >>
>><BR>> > > >> > Kai Eiselein<BR>> > > >>
> Editor, Latah Eagle<BR>> > > >> ><BR>> > >
>> ><BR>> > > >> Kai Eiselein<BR>> > > >>
Editor, Latah Eagle<BR>> > > >><BR>> > > >>
=======================================================<BR>> > >
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>><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > > >
"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college<BR>>
> > > students are not very active in local elections (thank
goodness!)."<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > - Dale Courtney
(March 28, 2007)<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> > >
> ---------------------------------------------<BR>> > > > This
message was sent by First Step Internet.<BR>> > > >
http://www.fsr.com/<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > ><BR>> >
> Kai Eiselein<BR>> > > Editor, Latah Eagle <BR>> > >
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======================================================= <BR>> > Kai
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<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Kai Eiselein<BR>Editor, Latah
Eagle</FONT></DIV><BR>
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