<table cellspacing='0' cellpadding='0' border='0' ><tr><td valign='top' style='font: inherit;'><P>I think anyone that says they would NEVER EVER torture someone under any possible circumstances under any definition of the term is either a liar or a heartless bastard. </P>
<P> </P>
<P>I don't think the US Government should do anything to anyone they don't think would be justified for the enemy to do to our soldiers or citizens under the same circumstances. </P>
<P> </P>
<P>Best Regards,</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Donovan</P>
<P> </P>
<P> </P>
<P><BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 7/10/08, Bill London <I><london@moscow.com></I></B> wrote:<BR></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: Bill London <london@moscow.com><BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.<BR>To: "Sunil <SPAN>Ramalingam</SPAN>" <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com>, vision2020@moscow.com<BR>Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 5:09 PM<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>In addition, is it actually true that torture results in accurate information?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>BL</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A title=sunilramalingam@hotmail.com href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>Sunil Ramalingam</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow>vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, July 10, 2008 1:20 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Roger,<BR><BR>The problem with your position, 'I think some enhanced interrogation methods are justified if it leads to information that saves lives,' is that every single time we question a suspect, we can say, 'He could have information that could save lives.' Then we could torture him.<BR><BR>If we make expediency our standard, then we have no standards at all.<BR><BR>Sunil<BR><BR>> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:09:18 -0700<BR>> From: lfalen@turbonet.com<BR>> To: sslund_2007@verizon.net; vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.<BR>> <BR>> Saundra<BR>> I didn't say it was not torture, only that I wasn't sure. I just checked it out on google. It looks like it is somewhat different from dunking. I think some enhanced interrogation methods are justified if it leads to information that saves lives. I am stil unsure about warerboarding. For the record I hate being dunked.
As a kid I stayed away from those that were doing it.<BR>> Roger<BR>> -----Original message-----<BR>> From: "Saundra Lund" sslund_2007@verizon.net<BR>> Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:35:16 -0700<BR>> To: "'lfalen'" lfalen@turbonet.com, vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.<BR>> <BR>> > In part, Roger wrote:<BR>> > "I am not sure what all water boarding consists of. If it is nothing more<BR>> > than repeated dunking, I am not sure that it is."<BR>> > <BR>> > You've already gotten great info, so now you know what waterboarding is. I<BR>> > thought every adult US citizen knew what waterboarding was by now -- it's<BR>> > certainly been in the news long enough, and since it's a torture . . . I<BR>> > mean, a technique . . . that's use has been authorized, we as citizens have<BR>> > a responsibility to know what it is, for goodness
sake.<BR>> > <BR>> > And, I'm . . . surprised it's not clear to you that both waterboarding and<BR>> > repeated dunking *are* torture. There are many, many, many documented<BR>> > instances where it's undeniable that the horror of repeated dunking as an<BR>> > "enhanced interrogation technique" is torture, pure and simple. As is<BR>> > waterboarding. Actually, immersion techniques as a form of torture are<BR>> > well-recognized and nothing new at all. Due to the perversion of some human<BR>> > minds, there are many variations, but torture is torture is torture is<BR>> > torture.<BR>> > <BR>> > Should you have any doubts, I suggest reading _Nunca Mas_, the report of the<BR>> > Argentine National Commission on the Disappeared which documents the<BR>> > atrocities of Argentina's Dirty War. The military junta called the<BR>> > technique of repeated dunking "submarino," and
it undoubtedly qualifies as<BR>> > torture by any sane definition of the word.<BR>> > <BR>> > I'd suggest having someone try it on you so you could form your own<BR>> > firsthand opinion, but on second thought: DON'T!!! It is dangerous.<BR>> > People DIE while being subjected to waterboarding, and people DIE while<BR>> > being repeatedly dunked. Instead, read the accounts of those who have<BR>> > experienced waterboarding firsthand. While it's not nearly the same<BR>> > experience as those who have had it done For Real, read what Christopher<BR>> > Hitchens has to say. Read the accounts of real survivors.<BR>> > <BR>> > I know you say you are opposed to torture, Roger, so I'm curious how you<BR>> > would define it if techniques like waterboarding and having one's head<BR>> > repeatedly and forcefully submerged to a point -- hopefully, at least for<BR>> > the
"interrogators" -- just short of death don�t qualify as torture?<BR>> > <BR>> > And, I'm incredibly sad that we even need to have a discussion about whether<BR>> > such acts at the behest of ***our*** government constitute torture :-(<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > Saundra Lund<BR>> > Moscow, ID<BR>> > <BR>> > The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do<BR>> > nothing.<BR>> > ~ Edmund Burke<BR>> > <BR>> > ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008 through life plus<BR>> > 70 years, Saundra Lund.� Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside<BR>> > the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the<BR>> > author.*****<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > -----Original Message-----<BR>> > From: vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com]<BR>> > On Behalf
Of lfalen<BR>> > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:04 AM<BR>> > To: vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> > Subject: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.<BR>> > <BR>> > Nick <BR>> > This is in response to your last two posts on GITMO. I am opposed to<BR>> > torture. The problem is in what constitutes torture.<BR>> > <BR>> > Pulling out fingernails, hung up by the arms, and breaking bones are<BR>> > clearly torture. When I was is the Army there was a war game exercise in<BR>> > which dogs from the US Army Dog Training Center were used for interrogation.<BR>> > One First Lt. broke and was washed out of the program. I do not believe this<BR>> > constitutes torture. If the dog is turned loose on the captor, then of<BR>> > course it would be. I am not sure what all water boarding consists of. If it<BR>> > is nothing more than repeated dunking, I am not sure that it
is. I would<BR>> > defer to John McCain on this.<BR>> > I have no doubt that some of the people held as terrorist are innocent.<BR>> > Paying a large bounty to turn people in is not a good policy and I agree<BR>> > would lead to innocent people being turned is for the mony. There needs to<BR>> > be some sort of secondary verification. As to news reports on the stories of<BR>> > detainees being tortured and their religion being insulted; I would take<BR>> > this with a grain of salt. I have read a lot of reports tha indicate the<BR>> > reverse. The reports say that the detainees are treated with kid gloves. The<BR>> > detainees are allowed to worship as the desire. If any of the guards show<BR>> > any disrespect for their religion it is the guards that are brought up on<BR>> > charges. The same goes for anything approaching torture. There were of<BR>> > course a few detainees related
to 9/11 that were interrogated heavily.<BR>> > whether any of it constitutes torture is debateable.<BR>> > In any case there has been no further 9/11's<BR>> > Roger<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> <BR>> =======================================================<BR>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <BR>> http://www.fsr.net <BR>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> =======================================================<BR>
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