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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>In addition, is it actually true that torture results in
accurate information?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>BL</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=sunilramalingam@hotmail.com
href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">Sunil Ramalingam</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, July 10, 2008 1:20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts
on terrorists and torture.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Roger,<BR><BR>The problem with your position, 'I think some
enhanced interrogation methods are justified if it leads to information that
saves lives,' is that every single time we question a suspect, we can say, 'He
could have information that could save lives.' Then we could torture
him.<BR><BR>If we make expediency our standard, then we have no standards at
all.<BR><BR>Sunil<BR><BR>> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:09:18 -0700<BR>>
From: lfalen@turbonet.com<BR>> To: sslund_2007@verizon.net;
vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Some thoughts on
terrorists and torture.<BR>> <BR>> Saundra<BR>> I didn't say it was
not torture, only that I wasn't sure. I just checked it out on google. It
looks like it is somewhat different from dunking. I think some enhanced
interrogation methods are justified if it leads to information that saves
lives. I am stil unsure about warerboarding. For the record I hate being
dunked. As a kid I stayed away from those that were doing it.<BR>>
Roger<BR>> -----Original message-----<BR>> From: "Saundra Lund"
sslund_2007@verizon.net<BR>> Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:35:16 -0700<BR>>
To: "'lfalen'" lfalen@turbonet.com, vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> Subject: RE:
[Vision2020] Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.<BR>> <BR>> > In
part, Roger wrote:<BR>> > "I am not sure what all water boarding
consists of. If it is nothing more<BR>> > than repeated dunking, I am
not sure that it is."<BR>> > <BR>> > You've already gotten great
info, so now you know what waterboarding is. I<BR>> > thought every
adult US citizen knew what waterboarding was by now -- it's<BR>> >
certainly been in the news long enough, and since it's a torture . . .
I<BR>> > mean, a technique . . . that's use has been authorized, we as
citizens have<BR>> > a responsibility to know what it is, for goodness
sake.<BR>> > <BR>> > And, I'm . . . surprised it's not clear to
you that both waterboarding and<BR>> > repeated dunking *are* torture.
There are many, many, many documented<BR>> > instances where it's
undeniable that the horror of repeated dunking as an<BR>> > "enhanced
interrogation technique" is torture, pure and simple. As is<BR>> >
waterboarding. Actually, immersion techniques as a form of torture are<BR>>
> well-recognized and nothing new at all. Due to the perversion of some
human<BR>> > minds, there are many variations, but torture is torture is
torture is<BR>> > torture.<BR>> > <BR>> > Should you have
any doubts, I suggest reading _Nunca Mas_, the report of the<BR>> >
Argentine National Commission on the Disappeared which documents the<BR>>
> atrocities of Argentina's Dirty War. The military junta called
the<BR>> > technique of repeated dunking "submarino," and it undoubtedly
qualifies as<BR>> > torture by any sane definition of the word.<BR>>
> <BR>> > I'd suggest having someone try it on you so you could form
your own<BR>> > firsthand opinion, but on second thought: DON'T!!! It is
dangerous.<BR>> > People DIE while being subjected to waterboarding, and
people DIE while<BR>> > being repeatedly dunked. Instead, read the
accounts of those who have<BR>> > experienced waterboarding firsthand.
While it's not nearly the same<BR>> > experience as those who have had
it done For Real, read what Christopher<BR>> > Hitchens has to say. Read
the accounts of real survivors.<BR>> > <BR>> > I know you say you
are opposed to torture, Roger, so I'm curious how you<BR>> > would
define it if techniques like waterboarding and having one's head<BR>> >
repeatedly and forcefully submerged to a point -- hopefully, at least
for<BR>> > the "interrogators" -- just short of death don�t qualify as
torture?<BR>> > <BR>> > And, I'm incredibly sad that we even need
to have a discussion about whether<BR>> > such acts at the behest of
***our*** government constitute torture :-(<BR>> > <BR>> >
<BR>> > Saundra Lund<BR>> > Moscow, ID<BR>> > <BR>> >
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to
do<BR>> > nothing.<BR>> > ~ Edmund Burke<BR>> > <BR>>
> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008 through life
plus<BR>> > 70 years, Saundra Lund.� Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or
reproduce outside<BR>> > the Vision 2020 forum without the express
written permission of the<BR>> > author.*****<BR>> > <BR>> >
<BR>> > -----Original Message-----<BR>> > From:
vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com]<BR>>
> On Behalf Of lfalen<BR>> > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:04
AM<BR>> > To: vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> > Subject: [Vision2020]
Some thoughts on terrorists and torture.<BR>> > <BR>> > Nick
<BR>> > This is in response to your last two posts on GITMO. I am
opposed to<BR>> > torture. The problem is in what constitutes
torture.<BR>> > <BR>> > Pulling out fingernails, hung up by the
arms, and breaking bones are<BR>> > clearly torture. When I was is the
Army there was a war game exercise in<BR>> > which dogs from the US Army
Dog Training Center were used for interrogation.<BR>> > One First Lt.
broke and was washed out of the program. I do not believe this<BR>> >
constitutes torture. If the dog is turned loose on the captor, then of<BR>>
> course it would be. I am not sure what all water boarding consists of. If
it<BR>> > is nothing more than repeated dunking, I am not sure that it
is. I would<BR>> > defer to John McCain on this.<BR>> > I have no
doubt that some of the people held as terrorist are innocent.<BR>> >
Paying a large bounty to turn people in is not a good policy and I
agree<BR>> > would lead to innocent people being turned is for the mony.
There needs to<BR>> > be some sort of secondary verification. As to news
reports on the stories of<BR>> > detainees being tortured and their
religion being insulted; I would take<BR>> > this with a grain of salt.
I have read a lot of reports tha indicate the<BR>> > reverse. The
reports say that the detainees are treated with kid gloves. The<BR>> >
detainees are allowed to worship as the desire. If any of the guards
show<BR>> > any disrespect for their religion it is the guards that are
brought up on<BR>> > charges. The same goes for anything approaching
torture. There were of<BR>> > course a few detainees related to 9/11
that were interrogated heavily.<BR>> > whether any of it constitutes
torture is debateable.<BR>> > In any case there has been no further
9/11's<BR>> > Roger<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> <BR>>
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