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No ruffled feathers here, Levi! I agree with your analysis, both then and now. As I said, what separates Wilson from other non-egalitarians ("complementarians," or those who believe that Scripture teaches equal but different, complementary, roles for women and men in home, church, and society) is not his basic belief re: women's ordination, but the ham-handed and hateful condemnation of things he doesn't understand or can't countenance. <br><br>Most people, even complementarians, believe that a woman's call to ministry is between her and her God, and whatever Biblical concerns they may have, they don't generally mock and belittle their sisters. Of course, in Wilson's case, that begs the question of whether or not a Spirit-led woman who seeks to do the will of God in spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ is, in fact, his sister. That is a question only God can answer; by the fruit of his ministry, though, I'm unable to presume that Doug Wilson is, just because he says so, a brother to any disciple of the Lord Jesus. Not my call, thankfully, and any call that I or any other woman has received isn't his to make, either.<br><br>And -- welcome to Vision Land! It's great to have a new voice on the forum . . .<br><br>Keely<br><br><br><br><br><hr>From: lcavener@vandals.uidaho.edu<br>To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:35:54 -0700<br>Subject: [Vision2020] FW: on ordaining women<br><br>
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Keely - agreed.<br><br>I wasn't trying to bash organized religion, rather just trying to point out Doug isn't alone in his belief. And just like you said, what separates Doug from the rest of the community is a little something called tolerance and acceptance even if it means just having to agree to disagree. Doug lacks this entirely, which is sad because it is that very acceptance and tolerance from the rest of the community that allows him to use Moscow as his home base, even if the community thinks that he is a bully and a bigot. Best wishes, and sorry if I ruffled any feathers.<br><br>
~Esto Perpetua<br>
<br>
Levi Cavener<br>
<br><br><br><br><hr id="EC_EC_stopSpelling">From: kjajmix1@msn.com<br>To: lcavener@vandals.uidaho.edu; vision2020@moscow.com<br>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] on ordaining women<br>Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 10:03:38 -0700<br><br>
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<br>Yeah, Levi, you're right -- it isn't just Doug Wilson who denies that Scripture permits female ordination. <br><br>Most evangelicals do, and that goes for those in Moscow. And I actually have great sympathy -- understanding, not pity -- for Christians who believe that way; they're reading their Bibles in a more woodenly literal, context-absent way than I do, but they do it in humility and in the honest belief that they're honoring God. Wilson is something else. Wilson is a mocker, a know-it-all, a bully, a bigot, and I believe the Scriptures speak of men like him, "these men (who) speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct . . . these are the very things that destroy them." (Jude 10)<br><br>It hurts me to say these things against another human being, Levi, especially one who represents himself as a minister of the Gospel -- just like I was in the '90s and, in a different way, am now. But Wilson's words condemn him, not mine, and in this my conscience is clear.<br><br>May the girls of Christ Church grow up knowing that marriage is great but optional; that pre-matrimonial devotion to a collection of tableware and linens is silly; and the gifts of the Holy Spirit given them must be used, for the sake of the Church and the Glory of God. And when one of them is ordained, may I get to be there cheering her on and praising the Lord.<br><br>Keely<br><br><br><br><br><br><hr>From: lcavener@vandals.uidaho.edu<br>To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 22:45:56 -0700<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] on ordaining women<br><br>
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<div style="text-align: left;">Its nice to know that all the littler girls sitting in Doug's congregation looking forward to such dreams as preaching in a holy house of their own were just brainwashed into believing that somehow their lack of male genitalia makes them inferior in every way to the other half of the population and thus can never aspire to be equal to men. I wonder if the female members of the church enjoy being told they are unequal and being emotional beaten when they come to celebrate god with their fellow religious community? But come on folks, it's not just Doug. When was the last time there was a female pope? <br></div><br> <br>
~Esto Perpetua<br>
<br>
Levi Cavener<br>
<br><br><br><br><hr id="EC_EC_EC_EC_stopSpelling">From: kjajmix1@msn.com<br>To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 19:19:30 -0700<br>Subject: [Vision2020] on ordaining women<br><br>
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<br>Doug Wilson today on the ordination of Anglican/Episcopalian women as bishops:<br><br><span style="font-style: italic;">"Putting on a bishop's mitre is not behaving like a woman. It is behaving like an ecclesiastical dyke."</span><br style="font-style: italic;"><br>It'll be a great day when a woman's call to Christian ministry is encouraged by the church when proved authentic by the Fruit of the Spirit within her, and a male minister can't rest on gender superiority when he consistently produces pastoral fruit unbecoming to the faith. I question the pastoral call of a man who mocks his Christian sisters solely on the basis of their pursuit of ordination in a historic Christian denomination. These women remain accountable to their denominations. They don't run off and form new ones that guarantee that they and their best buddies will prosper, and they figure that genitalia and gender do not a minister make -- or break. <br><br>If maleness qualifies Wilson for ministry, surely vitriol and vapidity should disqualify him. There is no "father hunger" so great as to warrant his continued presence in the pulpit, much less his continued identification as a Christian minister.<br><br>Keely<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><hr>Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger. <a href="http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_072008" target="_blank">IM on your terms.</a>
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