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Just one more correction. Gautama Buddha did believe in
reincarnation; it was central to his ethics. It is actually easier
to explain how karma can be passed from old life to new life with
Buddha's "bundle theory" of the self than with the idea of an
unchanging, eternal soul. Where exactly does karma "ride"
on such a soul?<br><br>
In defense of Ralph I believe that it is important to know what the
scriptures actually tell us. On the issue of an immortal soul, it
is imperative to point out that the idea that we have an unchanging,
immortal soul is simply not biblical. It is not even found in the
New Testament. As Paul himself writes in 1 Cor. 15:42-45, Adam and his
descendants are "dust men" and they return to the dust until
they are made immortal by an act of God. Unlike Greek and Hindu
views, Judeo-Christian texts teach a "bestowed" immortality not
a "natural" immortality. Another clue in this puzzle is
the fact that Judeo-Christianity has alwlays rejected the idea of the
pre-existence of the soul, which goes with natural not bestowed
immortality.<br><br>
Nick Gier<br><br>
Nick Gier<br><br>
At 10:50 AM 6/24/2008, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Ralph --<br><br>
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Torah isn't too big on the concept of Heaven,<br>
except in the cases Ezekiel and Enoch.<br><br>
But everytime you bring this up, you ignore Judaism as it's been<br>
practiced for the past 2000 years. The concept of Heaven has been an<br>
explicit part of Judaism since at least the Babylonian captivity.
It's<br>
certainly present in the Talmud. And every time you bring it up,
it's<br>
to draw a negative contrast with Christianity.<br><br>
You make exactly the same mistake with Buddhism, and for exactly the<br>
same reason: you confuse the actual practice of a religion with the<br>
standpoint of its authoritative texts, specifically to draw a
negative<br>
contrast with Christianity.<br><br>
You're right that the Buddha of the Pali Sutras was more concerned<br>
with the temporal suffering of humans than the fate (or even the<br>
existence) an indivisible, immortal soul. But you elide the actual<br>
practice of the religion. In this case, the "pure form" of
Theravada<br>
Buddhism is seldom practiced outside a monastic context: in its main<br>
geographic area in Southeast Asia, it is almost invariably overlaid
on<br>
ancestor-worshipping or spirit-venerating hedge religions. This<br>
necessarily requires an afterlife, or at least a "spirit
world."<br><br>
-- ACS<br><br>
On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:37 AM, Ralph Nielsen <nielsen@uidaho.edu>
wrote:<br>
> This survey fails to account for religions in which there is no<br>
> promise of eternal life after death, as in the Theravada tradition
of<br>
> Buddhism, which is practiced in Sri Lanka and Thailand, and in
the<br>
> Hebrew religion of the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament.<br>
><br>
> In both of these traditions there is no such thing as an eternal
soul<br>
> that survives death. However, popular Buddhism adopted the idea
of<br>
> reincarnation, but with ultimate cessation of this process as
the<br>
> ultimate goal.<br>
><br>
> In the Hebrew religion of the Bible the idea of an eternal soul
that<br>
> survives the body is specifically mentioned only once in the
Hebrew<br>
> Bible (Daniel 12:2-3). Daniel is also the latest book in the
Hebrew<br>
> Bible. Its prophecies are what Bible scholars call
"retrospective<br>
> prophecy."<br>
><br>
> In the Torah/Pentateuch there is not a hint of an afterlife.
God<br>
> himself made this crystal clear, "Then the LORD God said, 'See,
the<br>
> man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now,
he<br>
> might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and
eat<br>
> and live forever" (Genesis 3:22). So God sent the man and woman
out<br>
> of the garden of Eden and placed the cherubim with flaming sword
to<br>
> prevent them from getting back in and eating of the tree of life.
God<br>
> had never intended humans or animals to live forever. We were
made<br>
> from the dust of the ground (Genesis 2:7, 19) and when we die we
will<br>
> return to the dust from which we were made (Genesis 3:19). Here
we<br>
> have no idea of an eternal soul. We are products of the planet
earth<br>
> and to earth we will return.<br>
><br>
> This religious idea is widespread around the world. Most people
don't<br>
> need to be bribed or threatened with eternal life in a heaven or
a<br>
> hell to live morally with their fellow humans.<br>
><br>
> Ralph<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> [Vision2020] More than one path to salvation<br>
><br>
> Scott Dredge sdredge at yahoo.com<br>
> Mon Jun 23 11:45:14 PDT 2008<br>
><br>
>
<<a href="http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1817217,00.html" eudora="autourl">
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1817217,00.html</a>><br>
><br>
> Americans of every religious stripe are considerably more tolerant
of<br>
> the beliefs of others than most of us might have assumed, according
to<br>
> a new poll released Monday. The Pew Forum on Religion and Public
Life<br>
> last year surveyed 35,000 American, and found that 70% of
respondents<br>
> agreed with the statement "Many religions can lead to eternal
life."<br>
> Even more remarkable was the fact that 57% of Evangelical
Christians<br>
> were willing to accept that theirs might not be the only path
to<br>
> salvation, since most Christians historically have embraced the
words<br>
> of Jesus, in the Gospel of John, that "no one comes to the
Father<br>
> except through me." Even as mainline churches had become more
tolerant,<br>
> the exclusivity of Christianity's path to heaven has long been one
of<br>
> the Evangelicals' fundamental tenets. The new poll suggests a
major<br>
> shift, at least in the pews.<br>
><br>
> =======================================================<br>
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> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>
>
<a href="http://www.fsr.net/" eudora="autourl">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>
>
<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" eudora="autourl">
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
> =======================================================<br>
><br><br>
=======================================================<br>
List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<br>
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mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
=======================================================</blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<font size=2>"Truth is the summit of being; justice is the
application of it to human affairs."<br>
--Ralph Waldo Emerson<br><br>
"Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings
who represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."<br>
--Mohandas Gandhi<br><br>
"Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot
be discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each
part by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on
the interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our
intellectual life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between science,
religion, and art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum of its
various parts." --Ma</font><font size=1>x Planck<br><br>
</font>Nicholas F. Gier<br>
Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho<br>
1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843<br>
<a href="http://www.home.roadrunner.com/~nickgier/home.htm" eudora="autourl">
http://www.home.roadrunner.com/~nickgier/home.htm<br>
</a>208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950<br>
President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO<br>
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