<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Palatino Linotype";
panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 5 5 3 3 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.gmailquote
{mso-style-name:gmail_quote;}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Ted,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Please let me clarify again. The only reason I objected to
the “Everyone Deserves Death” thread along with the others
mentioned was because of the sheer VOLUME and numerous personal insults, not
the topic itself. When the number of posts on a topic exceeds 10-15 per
day, it’s usually because it has degraded into disrespect including what
I would call egotistical spam, ie “I know more than you… you’re
dumb, etc.” Those kinds of posts contribute nothing to the
discussion. That’s what I find objectionable. Overall,
it’s just asking for basic respect for others. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>B. J. Swanson<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Ted Moffett
[mailto:starbliss@gmail.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, June 21, 2008 1:10 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> vision 2020<br>
<b>Cc:</b> donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com; Bev Bafus; kfreitag@roadrunner.com; B.
J. Swanson; Warren Hayman<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Respect Vision 2020<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Trying to moderate Vision2020 is like herding cats...<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>First, I don't delete Vision2020 posts. No need
for deleting posts with Gmail's huge storage and free accounts
available to anyone, nearly. I suggest, as I have before, that
Vision2020 subscribers get a Gmail account, just for Vision2020, if
deletion of posts or storage is a problem. I have stored in my
Gmail account a few years worth of Vision2020 posts, which I can search via
Gmail's e-mail account search algorithms, sometimes very
useful. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I just went through a weeks worth of posts in short order,
even with dial-up. This might be unmanageable if there were thousands of
posts in a week... I should not even mention this possibility... Yikes.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Complaints about Vision2020 list serve conduct have never
succeeded in stopping egregious content or behavior, in the long run. The
tragedy of the commons? An argument against unmoderated list
serves? Sometimes, the complaints come from those who rarely put
themselves on the line, to present content that takes on an unpopular
cause, in vigorous discussion. The voice of Democracy is a loud, raucous,
sometimes irrational, sometimes impolite, sometimes downright insulting,
voice... But it can be authentic, in a way that polite moderated discourse is
not. Vision2020 should be valued, I think, even for some of the content
that is being complained about... Even for content I complain about. It
may be unpleasant and impolite, but it rings true to the nature of real human
conservation.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>It has been discussed before that a quick back and forth
dialog between two people is sometimes necessary to allow the creative
fires of the moment to find expression, when more than three posts a day (I
thought two posts a day was the agreed upon limit?) might provide
illumination to the topic. Occasionally. Certain Vision2020 list
participants take advantage of this rationale.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>B. J. Swanson thinks the "Everyone Deserves Death"
thread was objectionable. Given it explored the religious thinking behind
some of the most dangerous behavior the human race is facing at this time in
history, this thread did not even scratch the surface of exploring this issue,
nor it's critical importance in impacting everyones life. Again, this may
be an expression of the often held belief that discussions of religion are off
limits to Vision2020, as if exploring these fundamental ideological and ethical
issues, that are entwined in every action in our lives, from the local to the
state to the national and international level, are not appropriate.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Sometimes what is considered off limits to discussion are
exactly the very issues that are most critical to illuminating the vectors of
power and control over peoples lives.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>What I find most objectionable are the personal
insults... I don't mind two people posting twenty times in a week on one
topic if this does not degenerate into ugly personal insults. Who can say
whether or not someone may be following this exchange, even if they do not post
a response? If there were twenty of these discussions going on at once,
it would be difficult to follow. But this does not seem to happen, just
as a thousand posts a week do not seem to happen, why I am not sure, given the
possibility. I wonder why Vision2020 does not draw responses from all
over the world, given the fact, unless I misunderstand, that anyone on the
Internet globally could post?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Not keeping post content matching subject headings is a time
waster. After all, if a subject does not interest you, you can use the
subject heading to ignore that thread. Why complain? Just
ignore! But if people post various responses to a given subject heading
under various and sundry other subject headings, then it is easy to miss the full
discussion, and waste time opening posts that are discussing subjects of no
interest to the subscriber.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Trying to herd cats...<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Ted Moffett<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=gmailquote>On 6/16/08, <b>Warren Hayman</b> <<a
href="mailto:whayman@roadrunner.com">whayman@roadrunner.com</a>> wrote:</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Palatino Linotype","serif"'>Hello
again All,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Palatino Linotype","serif"'>Now
that two dogs are not vying for the attention of my hands and causing an
inadvertent "send" click, let me begin again.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Palatino Linotype","serif"'>My
concern was neither the content nor context of postings. Rather, the sheer
volume of what amounts to a couple of people texting each other multiple times
quickly, and thus, from my perspective, cluttering the inboxes of hundreds in
what seems to be minute elaborations of grammatical tropes, perspectives, and
one-upmanship. Some of the posts make even Achilles and Agamemnon at the beginning
of the <em><span style='font-family:"Palatino Linotype","serif"'>Iliad</span></em>
appear rational.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Palatino Linotype","serif"'>Supreme
Court rulings, for example, have cogency, coherency, and relevance even here in
Moscow. I would hesitate to call any one topic unimportant or irrevelant, and
enjoy the opportunity to learn from all of them. I don't learn much at all from
two or three folks engaging in vitriol-- take it off-list, maybe? Talk it out
at a downtown venue? Or at least give it a day to reflect prior to reply. This
may have been the operant mindset within Ms. Swanson's <em><span
style='font-family:"Palatino Linotype","serif"'>ad nauseum</span></em> phrase
earlier today-- not the topoi themselves, but the iteration and reiteration of
minutiae directed toward not all, but only one or two others at most.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Palatino Linotype","serif"'>I'm
not trying to advocate censorship here. Rather, I ask for the simple
consideration of all of the others entangled within the thread by proxy of the
listserve itself. Think twice before posting, and consider the entirety of the
audience?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Palatino Linotype","serif"'>Says
the guy who hit the send button by mistake,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Palatino Linotype","serif"'>Warren
Hayman</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>