<DIV>Ted,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I apologize for my misunderstanding. I though the email that was posted along with your email, the one from Debi Smith, was also a private email posted to you. I don't get Debi Smith's emails in my inbox, and so I assumed you posted the entire private conversation to the V. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best Regards,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Donovan<BR><BR><B><I>Ted Moffett <starbliss@gmail.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <DIV>All:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It appears there may be a misunderstanding on one simple point, promoted by someone who again is posting obscurantist ad hominem "noise" to Vision2020: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The "Off List" e-mail I posted to Vision2020 under the subject heading of this post was my at first private reply to a public Vision2020 post. I was thus
posting my own previously "Off List" writing to the list, answering a Vision2020 post, not the communication of anyone else that I received privately. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone carefully following what I posted would have realized this, and not have insinuated that I was breaking the "rule" (at least I think it is a rule) that private e-mails that Vision2020 list members receive from others, are not to be posted to Vision2020, unless by permission. This insinuation is a good example of the obfuscation (I love that word!) of the truth that some are intent on presenting to Vision2020, diverting list serve activity away from reasonable and respectful discussion of issues and facts, to attacks against personality.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Posting my own private e-mails to Vision2020 is my choice, and does not break this "rule," as long as I do not include privately sent content in the post that was not intended by the sender to end
up on a public list serve</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ted Moffett<BR><BR> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 5/17/08, <B class=gmail_sendername>Paul Rumelhart</B> <<A href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</A>> wrote:</SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">I think that if someone has to resort to using Donovan's userid to make their point, then either they are afraid to debate in public or they are afraid that what they say will be taken out of context because of who they are. Either way, I'm more interested in the topics being debated than I am in the provenance of the ideas. <BR>If someone or someones are hiding behind Donovan's skirts (not that Donovan's female, or that he cross dresses - I'm just all out of metaphors), I hope that some day they can grow a pair and come out and talk to us using their own email accounts.<BR><BR>I agree that it's
deceptive, if it is in fact occurring. At least they are not forging similar looking email accounts like the person (whoever it was) that used to pose as J Ford every now and then.<BR><BR>It doesn't really matter much to me, as I've learned that whoever is posting using Donovan's account (which I'm still simply assuming is Donovan himself) is a troll, although maybe inadvertently. I've been bitten, and now I'm pretty much refusing to go for the bait. The only thing I've added to the debate (aside from this email) is a hopefully helpful page on how to read email headers.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>Ted Moffett wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><SPAN class=q>Donovan Arnold, or whoever, wrote:<BR> <A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-May/053886.html"
target=_blank>http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-May/053886.html</A><BR> I think everyone deserves death Joe. As everyone is a sinner. But only through the grace of God and the sacrifice of Jesus do we live.<BR>--------------<BR>This statement represents the kind of thinking that makes religious cults dangerous, no matter what religion is supporting this extremism.<BR>--------------<BR>Paul wrote:<BR> <A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-May/053844.html" target=_blank>http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-May/053844.html</A><BR> I just figure that it doesn't matter much if Donovan is one person, a<BR>committee, multiple personalities, a hive mind, a front for a<BR>corporation, a demon host, an AI, or a couple of local church members. If he says something idiotic, it's still idiotic and if he makes a good<BR>point it's still a good
point.<BR>------------------<BR>Paul, your approach to "Donovan's" posts apparently is tolerant of those who antagonize and provoke, while perhaps hiding who they are on Vision2020. It does matter if Vision2020 participants are misrepresenting who they are, or allow others to hijack their identity. It creates a climate on the list that does not encourage honest forthright participation by sincere players, and undermines fact and logic based discussion, when the bogus (or even real) identity distorts what people assert, on a routine basis, changes their point of view, seemingly at random, deliberately to create confusion, it appears, and indulges in juvenile personal attacks, wasting posting space with this nonsense. Those posting under Donovan's name, or even if Donovan is the author of all this confusion, represents an effort to obfuscate honest debate and dialog, to poison Vision2020, in my opinion.<BR> Those who misrepresent who they are on
Vision2020, or let their e-mail account be hijacked by others, should be ignored, in most cases, even if they make a good point. Below is an "Off List" e-mail on this subject that I reconsidered regarding posting it to the list:<BR><BR>---------- Forwarded message ----------<BR></SPAN><SPAN class=q>From: *Ted Moffett* <<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com" target=_blank>starbliss@gmail.com</A> <mailto:<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com" target=_blank>starbliss@gmail.com</A>>><BR>Date: May 12, 2008 12:29 AM<BR>Subject: Off List: Re: [Vision2020] The Fetus is Not a Baby and is not a Person<BR></SPAN><SPAN class=q>To: deb <<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:debismith@moscow.com" target=_blank>debismith@moscow.com</A> <mailto:<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:debismith@moscow.com" target=_blank>debismith@moscow.com</A>>><BR><BR>Off List<BR> Deb-<BR> Exactly. Yet, Keely, Joe C., Chas, et. al. must know this, yet they keep engaging with "Donovan" in what seem to me to be pointless dialog. Is this to find a focal point for debate, provide entertainment to keep Vision2020 engaging (yellow journalism sells), offer Donovan their "help?" Donovan sometimes makes good points. I have occasionally responded to his posts. But this recent nonsense, as sometimes in the past, is over the top. I guess if it is true that others are posting under Donovan's name, then the responses are aimed at whoever they are. Why give the ghost writer reinforcement by responding? This is perhaps an encouragement for "bad" list serve behavior. Ghost writers should be ignored, I think, if it is known this is occurring. Some might say however, that insults and nonsense on the
list should be responded to, even if from idiots or ghost writers, to now allow it to pass unchallenged.<BR> Sometimes it seems Donovan is deliberately making himself too easy a target, to provoke responses.<BR> I don't want to post as Vision2020 psychiatrist, like some do. This I find laughable and offensive, given that no responsible professional psychiatrist would do therapy on a public list serve, given that this could do real harm to a truly pathological personality. And as far as I know, none of those responding to Donovan are psychologists or psychiatrists. Talk about needing to stop the "unqualified pronouncements" as Chas phrased it. He should not psychoanalyse Donovan on Vision2020, as he has done, it seems to me...<BR> Anyway, your post expressed what I have been thinking, but did not post to the list... Trying to moderate Vision2020 is like herding cats...<BR> Ted<BR></SPAN><SPAN class=q> On 5/11/08, *deb* <<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:debismith@moscow.com" target=_blank>debismith@moscow.com</A> <mailto:<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:debismith@moscow.com" target=_blank>debismith@moscow.com</A>>> wrote:<BR><BR> Once again, the V is sucked into replies to the "Donovan" persona.<BR> Please,<BR> as I have pleaded with all my friends on the V many times over the<BR> past 4<BR> years, BOZO filter this guy. Stop replying, stop giving the lunatic<BR> credance, and stop letting him manage you all into being angry at<BR> someone<BR> who only deserves our pity...<BR> Debi R-S<BR><BR> ----- Original Message -----<BR></SPAN><SPAN class=q> From: "Tom Hansen" <<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com"
target=_blank>thansen@moscow.com</A> <mailto:<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target=_blank>thansen@moscow.com</A>>><BR> To: "keely emerinemix" <<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com" target=_blank>kjajmix1@msn.com</A><BR></SPAN><SPAN class=q> <mailto:<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com" target=_blank>kjajmix1@msn.com</A>>>; "Donovan Arnold"<BR> <<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target=_blank>donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</A><BR></SPAN> <DIV><SPAN class=e id=q_119faa960dad8f78_7> <mailto:<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target=_blank>donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</A>>>; "Joe Campbell"<BR>
<<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net" target=_blank>joekc@adelphia.net</A> <mailto:<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net" target=_blank>joekc@adelphia.net</A>>>; "Vision<BR> 2020" <<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A> <mailto:<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A>>>;<BR> "Ralph Nielsen" <<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nielsen@uidaho.edu" target=_blank>nielsen@uidaho.edu</A> <mailto:<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nielsen@uidaho.edu" target=_blank>nielsen@uidaho.edu</A>>><BR> Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 3:58 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Fetus is Not a Baby and is not a Person<BR><BR><BR> > "I never first strike. But I will attack back with full force."<BR> > - Donovan J. Arnold (or is it Doudalchri Wilcourwit?) on May 11,<BR> 2008<BR> ><BR> > The question then becomes . . . What would God do in retribution<BR> to you<BR> > and your sinful attitude toward your fellow man, Arnold?<BR> ><BR> > Perhaps . . .<BR> ><BR> > "God Will F*ck You Up"<BR> > <A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA-pWKRyyG8" target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA-pWKRyyG8</A><BR> ><BR> > I just know this will lift the lid off a few well stirred stink<BR> pots.<BR> ><BR> > Keep them cards
and letters coming.<BR> ><BR> > Tom Hansen<BR> > Moscow,<BR> > Idaho<BR> ><BR> > <BR></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>=======================================================<BR>List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <BR>http://www.fsr.net <BR>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>=======================================================</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p>