<DIV>Ted,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"The wages of sin. is death" (Rom. 6:23). This is a basic belief of Christianity, not cults, as you profess. Without that belief Jesus's sacrifice would have been pointless. Everyone one of use acts or sins against God. And because of that, we all deserve death. Jesus died for our sins so we do not have to suffer our deserved punishment. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where you are confused, is you think it gives people a license to kill and discriminate against others. It doesn't. That is a false conclusion you and others arrive at that don't understand Christianity because you choose not to listen to what is being said.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On your other point of attacking my posts as being unproductive, I do not think you are in the strongest position to lay the ground work of this attack on me. I have not seen ANY of your posts changing or invoking any productivity in Moscow or
anywhere else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your posts are usually about five pages of complaints about the environment. I have never seen you work on any social issues, change legislation, campaign for anyone, or even run a recycle can drive. Your words are hollow, backed by no legislation, no originality, and no progressive movement, just noise. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally, I am disappointed by your action of posting private emails on the V. I think that undermines trust and the nature in which people post emails. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best Regards,</DIV> <DIV><BR>Donovan </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Ted Moffett <starbliss@gmail.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <DIV>Donovan Arnold, or whoever, wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A
href="http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-May/053886.html">http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-May/053886.html</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think everyone deserves death Joe. As everyone is a sinner. But only through the grace of God and the sacrifice of Jesus do we live.<BR>--------------</DIV> <DIV>This statement represents the kind of thinking that makes religious cults dangerous, no matter what religion is supporting this extremism.</DIV> <DIV>--------------</DIV> <DIV>Paul wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-May/053844.html">http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2008-May/053844.html</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just figure that it doesn't matter much if Donovan is one person, a <BR>committee, multiple personalities, a hive mind, a front for a <BR>corporation, a demon host, an AI, or a couple of local church members. <BR>If he says something
idiotic, it's still idiotic and if he makes a good <BR>point it's still a good point. </DIV> <DIV>------------------</DIV> <DIV>Paul, your approach to "Donovan's" posts apparently is tolerant of those who antagonize and provoke, while perhaps hiding who they are on Vision2020. It does matter if Vision2020 participants are misrepresenting who they are, or allow others to hijack their identity. It creates a climate on the list that does not encourage honest forthright participation by sincere players, and undermines fact and logic based discussion, when the bogus (or even real) identity distorts what people assert, on a routine basis, changes their point of view, seemingly at random, deliberately to create confusion, it appears, and indulges in juvenile personal attacks, wasting posting space with this nonsense. Those posting under Donovan's name, or even if Donovan is the author of all this confusion,
represents an effort to obfuscate honest debate and dialog, to poison Vision2020, in my opinion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Those who misrepresent who they are on Vision2020, or let their e-mail account be hijacked by others, should be ignored, in most cases, even if they make a good point. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Below is an "Off List" e-mail on this subject that I reconsidered regarding posting it to the list:</DIV> <DIV><BR>---------- Forwarded message ----------<BR><SPAN class=gmail_quote>From: <B class=gmail_sendername>Ted Moffett</B> <<A href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com">starbliss@gmail.com</A>><BR>Date: May 12, 2008 12:29 AM<BR>Subject: Off List: Re: [Vision2020] The Fetus is Not a Baby and is not a Person<BR>To: deb <<A href="mailto:debismith@moscow.com">debismith@moscow.com</A>><BR><BR></SPAN>Off List</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Deb-</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Exactly. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yet, Keely, Joe C.,
Chas, et. al. must know this, yet they keep engaging with "Donovan" in what seem to me to be pointless dialog. Is this to find a focal point for debate, provide entertainment to keep Vision2020 engaging (yellow journalism sells), offer Donovan their "help?" </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Donovan sometimes makes good points. I have occasionally responded to his posts. But this recent nonsense, as sometimes in the past, is over the top. I guess if it is true that others are posting under Donovan's name, then the responses are aimed at whoever they are. Why give the ghost writer reinforcement by responding? This is perhaps an encouragement for "bad" list serve behavior. Ghost writers should be ignored, I think, if it is known this is occurring. Some might say however, that insults and nonsense on the list should be responded to, even if from idiots or ghost writers, to now allow it
to pass unchallenged.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sometimes it seems Donovan is deliberately making himself too easy a target, to provoke responses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't want to post as Vision2020 psychiatrist, like some do. This I find laughable and offensive, given that no responsible professional psychiatrist would do therapy on a public list serve, given that this could do real harm to a truly pathological personality. And as far as I know, none of those responding to Donovan are psychologists or psychiatrists. Talk about needing to stop the "unqualified pronouncements" as Chas phrased it. He should not psychoanalyse Donovan on Vision2020, as he has done, it seems to me...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, your post expressed what I have been thinking, but did not post to the list... Trying to moderate Vision2020 is like herding cats...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ted</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 5/11/08, <B class=gmail_sendername>deb</B> <<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:debismith@moscow.com" target=_blank>debismith@moscow.com</A>> wrote:</SPAN></DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Once again, the V is sucked into replies to the "Donovan" persona. Please,<BR>as I have pleaded with all my friends on the V many times over the past 4<BR>years, BOZO filter this guy. Stop replying, stop giving the lunatic<BR>credance, and stop letting him manage you all into being angry at someone<BR>who only deserves our pity...<BR>Debi R-S<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Tom Hansen" <<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target=_blank>thansen@moscow.com</A>><BR>To: "keely emerinemix" <<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com" target=_blank>kjajmix1@msn.com</A>>; "Donovan Arnold"<BR><<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target=_blank>donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</A>>; "Joe Campbell" <<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net" target=_blank>joekc@adelphia.net</A>>; "Vision<BR>2020" <<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A>>; "Ralph Nielsen" <<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nielsen@uidaho.edu" target=_blank>nielsen@uidaho.edu</A>><BR>Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 3:58 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Fetus is Not a Baby and is not a Person<BR><BR><BR>> "I never first strike. But I will attack back with full force."<BR>> - Donovan J. Arnold (or is it Doudalchri Wilcourwit?) on May 11,
2008<BR>><BR>> The question then becomes . . . What would God do in retribution to you<BR>> and your sinful attitude toward your fellow man, Arnold?<BR>><BR>> Perhaps . . .<BR>><BR>> "God Will F*ck You Up"<BR>> <A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA-pWKRyyG8" target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA-pWKRyyG8</A><BR>><BR>> I just know this will lift the lid off a few well stirred stink pots.<BR>><BR>> Keep them cards and letters coming.<BR>><BR>> Tom Hansen<BR>> Moscow,<BR>> Idaho<BR>><BR>> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p>