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Keely, you obviously do have a deep understanding of the bible but I don't think your target is Ralph. I took Ralph's note to be his way of expressing, maybe sarcastically in the second half, how the men in control of groups like the latest FLDS justify their actions and moral disrepect of their families in their minds. Like, how they think. I don't see anywhere where he is supporting their actions nor blaming it on religion itself but maybe the crazy interpretations of a book so fraught with symbolic meaning that opens the door to anyone seeing whatever they are looking for in it, then convincing others to live their lives by their new interpretation. The moral is to think for yourselves lest you become feed for David Koresh or the next power trippin' honky.<BR>
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Side note, I saw a show recently on the History Channel called "Banned from the Bible" which talks of approx. 13 omitted gospels that were censored from the bible or chosen not to be included. Some even in just the last 6-800 years. One of those had another telling of the creation of man and woman where both were created at the same time and independantly. I can't remember how, but the woman either wished to be or was forced to leave the Earth so then God created Eve from the rib of Adam.<BR>
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I'm sure I'm wrong about the details here but maybe someone on the list has a better knowledge of the censored gospels that have been uncovered in the last few years that would have been considered a threat to the "Man Rules" ideology of the framers of modern religion?<BR>
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Don<BR>
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> Message: 2<BR>> Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 17:48:35 -0700<BR>> From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1@msn.com><BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The FLDS Church<BR>> To: Ralph Nielsen <nielsen@uidaho.edu>, Vision 2020<BR>> <vision2020@moscow.com><BR>> Message-ID: <BAY106-W5477A254549D5244426EFE82DA0@phx.gbl><BR>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Ralph presents a witty and insightful description of the FLDS ranch in West Texas and the same organization's compound in Bountiful, B.C., comparing their operations with animal husbandry and traditional Western ranching . . . and Old Testament theology.<BR>> <BR>> Let me say right from the start that I do not have Ralph's education, history of academic output, and life experience. Further, I am an unabashed believer in the Bible, which I imagine must annoy or disappoint him. Still, I think that Ralph's grasp of ranching is better than his analysis of the Old Testament, and both are better than his apparent willingness to ignore the New Testament's "final word" on the end of patriarchy and the mutuality of the sexes. <BR>> <BR>> I don't think anyone can seriously disagree that the Old Testament is rife with examples of patriarchy as an institution, as well as gross examples of patriarchy run amok. I don't much like the O.T. system of patriarchy, which had more to do with "one man over everyone" in a household than simply "one man over a woman" in any religious or civic setting. I consider it residue from the Fall; I don't believe, based on the Genesis accounts of creation, that God's first intention was anything other than complete mutuality between women and men in submission to each other and to the Divine. Male dominance entered after the dawning of sin in creation, and it developed into an agrarian economic system that depended, however sinfully, on the machinations of patriarchy to a ensure a householder's access to finite resources. Women, lacking the physical strength of men in a hardscrabble, cursed-earth existence, were further physically disadvantaged by near-constant pregnancy and lac!<BR>> tation, and the spectre of dominance by gender, and then by race and class, was further ennobled. It wasn't, however, at all noble. Still, it may have been inevitable -- again, given the reality of an economy of agrarian scarcity and competition. <BR>> <BR>> There were good men, undoubtedly, who were considered patriarchs in the thousands of years before Christ's incarnation. They may have been devout, but they would have been better men -- more Godly men -- had they shunned the privileges and powers inherent in a patriarchal system and lived "against culture," although doing so could have compromised the economic security of the households over which they were empowered. And there were, irrefutably, really bad men who grabbed the mantle of patriarchy, and it seems some of their descendants even today refuse to let go. <BR>> <BR>> But they must let go, if they claim the name of Jesus Christ. The Gospel of the New Testament turns patriarchy -- all hierarchy, really -- on its head. Even the three or four difficult passages in the epistles written by the Apostle Paul, those that appear at first reading to prohibit women's leadership in the home and church, don't negate the radical mutuality of Christ's message. Further, those three or four passages, when exegeted properly, reveal themselves as culture-bound, limited prohibitions -- and, in First Corinthians, themselves appear to run afoul of Paul's nonchalant, confident assumption that women will prophesy, or teach authoritatively, in the assembly. Paul's proscriptions against women's practice of their spiritual gifts is presented as a time- and place-specific situation, addressing a particular situation in the Corinthian church. But his teachings on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the function of the church and home, the honor due workers in the chur!<BR>> ch, and the mission of the Church are replete with examples of women's and men's equal gifting, mutuality, and equal service in the church. It's hard, for example, to explain away the number of women commended by Paul in Romans 16 as workers in the church, especially the apostle Junia and the deacon Phoebe. First Corinthians resonates with a clear symmetry between male and female realities and responsibilities in the Christian walk: Woman came from man, all men then came from woman, and all people come from God, or the call for women to give themselves freely to their husbands sexually, just as the men are to give themselves freely, in the same sacrificial way, to their wives. The wife has "her say" over her husband in Christ; the husband has his as well over her. In Christ, this is a beautiful picture of interdependence and mutuality and love. But that's "in Christ." It cannot be counterfeited by male power and privilege in ANY institution, ANYWHERE, by ANYONE and s!<BR>> till be "in Christ," who through Paul proclaimed in Galatians 3:28<BR>> that in the Christian community, as regards privilege and participation, "There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus . . . "<BR>> <BR>> Ralph's description of Old Testament patriarchy is basically correct, but the story of patriarchy in the Christian Church has a spectacular ending, and it's found in the person of Christ and testimony of him in the New Testament. That the men who lead some aberrant groups who take the name of Christ choose to wallow like pigs in the poke of patriarchy makes Ralph's ranch analogy more clear, but to call it "Christian" ignores the lush green pastures of life with the Shepherd.<BR>> <BR>> Keely<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> > From: nielsen@uidaho.edu<BR>> > Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:46:15 -0700<BR>> > To: Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> > Subject: [Vision2020] The FLDS Church<BR>> > <BR>> > We have an FLDS church/ranch a lot closer to Moscow than the one in <BR>> > Texas. It is in Bountiful BC, about 30-odd miles down the Kootenai <BR>> > River from Bonners Ferry ID. Just google <bountiful bc> and you can <BR>> > read all about it.<BR>> > <BR>> > It is not for nothing that these places are called ranches. Human <BR>> > beings are being treated like cattle and they are so brainwashed that <BR>> > they actually enjoy it. It's all very religious, of course. Polygamy <BR>> > was common for big shots in Old Testament days and the prophet Joseph <BR>> > Smith got revelations from God stating that a man must have more than <BR>> > one wife to get into an upper layer of heaven after he dies. So they <BR>> > are just minding their own business practicing their own religion.<BR>> > <BR>> > These ranches are operated along perfectly good principles, both <BR>> > religious and in keeping with good animal husbandry. According to the <BR>> > Bible a man's wives and children are his property.<BR>> > <BR>> > According to good cattle breeding practice a young heifer is sent to <BR>> > be bred by a bull when she reaches breeding age. That is exactly what <BR>> > they do on the FLDS ranches. But it is not good practice to breed a <BR>> > heifer or cow to her father. So a well managed ranch keeps more than <BR>> > one bull. Likewise on FLDS ranches. There is a head bull and several <BR>> > auxiliary bulls. But what to with all the surplus bull calves that <BR>> > get born? Well, they can't legally turn them into steers so they <BR>> > simply kick them off the ranch to fend for themselves. Apparently <BR>> > some of these outcasts are to be found in Bonners Ferry and Salt Lake <BR>> > City. The head bull in Bountiful BC owns about 30 cows, who have <BR>> > given him around 80 calves. A real man of property! And a man of God <BR>> > too!<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > =======================================================<BR>> > List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <BR>> > http://www.fsr.net <BR>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> > =======================================================<BR>> <BR>> _________________________________________________________________<BR>> Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize!<BR>> http://www.gowindowslive.com/Mobile/Landing/Messenger/Default.aspx?Locale=en-US?ocid=TAG_APRIL<BR>> -------------- next part --------------<BR>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>> URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20080501/8c19e4db/attachment.html <BR>> <BR>> ------------------------------<BR>> <BR>> =======================================================<BR>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <BR>> http://www.fsr.net <BR>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> =======================================================<BR>> <BR>> End of Vision2020 Digest, Vol 23, Issue 5<BR>> *****************************************<BR><BR><br /><hr />Back to work after baby– <a href='http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A' target='_new'>how do you know when you’re ready?</a></body>
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