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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Donovan
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>“</span>Health
insurance companies enable doctors and health care providers to charge fees not
otherwise affordable to 90% of the public, and putting the poor into medical
bankruptcy.”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The
fact of the matter is that the majority of those forced into bankruptcy due to
medical bills are middle-class home-owning college educated Americans with
health insurance, not the poor.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>As
completely pathetic and wholly inadequate as they are, there are “safety
nets” for the poor that simply don’t exist for middle-class
Americans with health insurance. I am – and have been -- well-aware
of the lunacy of different charges for those with health insurance vs those
without, and it’s something I’ve been vocal about opposing for
years.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>However,
I’ve also been very well-aware of insurance companies steadily eroding
benefits while premiums have skyrocketed for those with health insurance in
recent years. It is that erosion of benefits, routine denials of valid claims,
inadequacy of provider “networks” (read: paying premiums for
care that’s not available – in essence, selling worthless products
to major employers and individuals), and skyrocketing premiums that are
responsible for the increase in bankruptcies due to medical expenses. All
you have to do is read the research over the past decade or so to know this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Other
wealthy free-market industrialized societies have been able to affordably address
the problem – why can’t we? We agree, I think, that the
answer is greed, but If those of us in the US who believe the problem <b>is</b>
solvable don’t come together and <b>demand</b> meaningful and proven reform,
we’ll continue on the same path we’ve been heading down that has
gotten us to the unconscionable state of health care affairs in America.
I believe it <b>is</b> possible – what about you?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I’ve
been calling for Universal Health Care in America for at least two decades (and
being labeled a commie, a socialist, and too many other pejoratives to list) –
what are you advocating? If you’ve done your homework, you know as
well as I the impossible financial ramifications of allowing folks to “opt
out” of health care coverage unless we go to a single-payer system:
we-the-taxpayers wind up footing the bill for catastrophic costs. Again,
other industrialized countries have done a much better job of addressing health
care coverage for all – why can’t we?!?!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So,
Donovan – what’s your solution? Do we continue down the same
path that’s gotten us here, or do we do something different? If we
do something different, what do you envision? I’m asking because I
want to know your thoughts. I have mine, but I’m absolutely open to
anything you can show me that <b>will</b> work to get us out of the deplorable
situation we find ourselves in.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Saundra Lund<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Moscow, ID<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good
people to do nothing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>~ Edmund Burke<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008
through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt,
or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written
permission of the author.*****<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Donovan Arnold
[mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 21, 2008 10:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Saundra Lund; 'Ralph Nielsen'; 'Vision 2020'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Vision2020] Health care<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Saundra,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>What
exactly did I say that contradicts what you said below? The reason people are
going broke is because medical costs are too high, due to greed. It is not
because people are dying at a higher rate than they were 30 years. In fact,
people are living longer.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Poorer
people are charged more for medical care than those with heath insurance, that
is fact, don't believe me, call your insurance company, or any insurance
company, and they will tell confirm what I say.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Best
Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Donovan</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
<b><i>Saundra Lund <sslund_2007@verizon.net></i></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Actually,
Donovan, I think you are mistaken. While this article is a couple of
years old, the stat breakdown still hold according to the ABI:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><a
href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6895896/">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6895896/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Note:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>“</span>Costly
illnesses trigger about half of all personal bankruptcies, and <b>most of those
who go bankrupt because of medical problems have health insurance</b>,
according to findings from a Harvard University study to be released Wednesday.
. . Most of those seeking court protection from creditors had health insurance,
with more than three-quarters reporting they had coverage at the start of the
illness that triggered bankruptcy. . . Out-of-pocket medical expenses covering
co-payments, deductibles and uncovered health services averaged $13,460 for
bankruptcy filers who had private insurance at the onset of illness, compared
with $10,893 for those without coverage. Those who initially had private
coverage but lost it during their illness faced the highest cost, an average of
$18,005. . . The findings indicate medical-related bankruptcies hit
middle-class families hard — 56 percent of the filers owned a home, and
the same number had attended college. “Families with coverage faced
unaffordable co-payments, deductibles and bills for uncovered items like
physical therapy, psychiatric care and prescription drugs,” Himmelstein
said.””<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The
state of health care in this country is a national disgrace, but it really gets
tiresome, Donovan, for you to continually fail to recognize that the
middle-class is being hit <b>very</b> hard, harder than the poor by all factual
reports, with respect to bankruptcy due to medical expenses.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Furthermore,
those parents forced into relinquishing parental rights to ensure that their
children have access to appropriate medical care for chronic conditions are
overwhelmingly middle-class families with health insurance. This
particular horror is something the poor are actually spared.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Another
instance is the cost of medications. For those without health insurance,
there are many patient assistance programs available. I know two people
taking identical medications: one gets the medications free through
patient assistance programs, and the other with health insurance will pay in
excess of $300 per month <b>after</b> meeting a $1500 deductible. Their
annual incomes are about $1100 apart.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If
you have more current factual information, I’m all ears (or eyes, as the
case may be).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You
are, however, correct, IMHO, that the greed possible in an unfettered free
market is responsible for our US unconscionable health care costs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Saundra Lund<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Moscow, ID<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good
people to do nothing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>~ Edmund Burke<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008
through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt,
or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written
permission of the author.*****<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> vision2020-bounces@moscow.com
[mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Donovan Arnold<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 21, 2008 7:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ralph Nielsen; Vision 2020<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Donovan Arnold<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Health care<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Ralph,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The reason that charity doesn't pay for medical care of the
poor is because we charge outrageous rates for medical care.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>No, my band-aid example is grounded in reality, although
exaggerated to make a point. Hospitals overcharge the uninsured, that is a
fact. The reason they do this is because they know that they will only recover
a certain percentage of the actual cost of providing them care. This strategy
obviously hurts the poor more than those that are wealthier and can afford
health insurance.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Health insurance companies enable doctors and health care
providers to charge fees not otherwise affordable to 90% of the public, and
putting the poor into medical bankruptcy. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>You cannot apply the Canadian system of health care to that
of the United States. It would not work. Greed is the simple reason for our
health care system being unaffordable to the average citizen, it is that
simple. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Best Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Donovan<br>
<br>
<b><i>Ralph Nielsen <nielsen@uidaho.edu></i></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
Dear Donovan,<br>
<br>
I don't know where you get these ideas, but they are not grounded on <br>
reality. If you imagine that charity will pay for the poor, why are <br>
over 40 million Americans without health care insurance of any kind? <br>
And why are millions more bankrupted by doctor and hospital bills <br>
that their insurance companies refuse to pay? I think your band-aid <br>
example is absurd.<br>
<br>
For some first-hand information on how universal medicare works in <br>
the Province of British Columbia, please read the first two articles <br>
on this web site. They are written by an American citizen who lives <br>
in BC and is familiar with both systems. And please note, Donovan, <br>
the Canadian system does not benefit the rich while hurting the poor, <br>
as you claim below. Please get your facts first.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Ralph<br>
<br>
<br>
Ralph,<br>
<br>
Universal Health Care, and Universal Health Coverage are two <br>
totally different things. Forcing people to buy health insurance <br>
doesn't cure anybody, it just makes doctors and insurance companies <br>
even wealthier than they are.<br>
<br>
I am 100% against forced health insurance purchasing, because it <br>
will not help the poor and will just be another tax benefiting the <br>
rich while hurting the poor.<br>
<br>
The problem is not how can we pay for a $60 band-aid, but rather, <br>
why we cannot reduce the cost of the band-aid to 60 cents, or even <br>
$6.00. If you bring down the cost of the band-aid, the middle class <br>
can afford health insurance and charity can afford to cover the poor.<br>
<br>
Best Regards,<br>
<br>
Donovan<br>
<br>
Ralph Nielsen wrote:<br>
I thought it was a very informative program in that it covered a<br>
variety of systems for universal coverage. Unfortunately, most<br>
Americans seem to have been indoctrinated with the idea the <br>
universal<br>
health insurance is "socialized medicine," and therefore to be<br>
avoided like poison A couple of months ago a repairman at my house<br>
used that term with an air of dislike. So I asked hem what he meant<br>
by that term. He replied that it means that all doctors will be<br>
working for the government.<br>
<br>
So I told him about my Canadian brother, who is a self-made<br>
millionaire, and lives in the Okanagan Valley, just north of the<br>
Washington border. About a year ago he had a hip replacement. He <br>
had<br>
to wait less than a month because he was willing to go to a younger<br>
doctor instead of an older, more popular one. Most Canadian doctors<br>
do not work for the government, they work for themselves. Only the<br>
insurance is paid by the government, like our Medicare, and ALL<br>
residents are covered, not just the rich, as down here. This is <br>
paid<br>
for by income taxes, which, of course, are based on ability to pay,<br>
and everybody is covered, regardless of income.<br>
<br>
Last month there was a provincial election in Alberta, where the<br>
Conservative Party has been in power for 37 years. In February they<br>
called for a provincial election on March 3. I listened on my<br>
internet radio to a 2-hour debate between the party leaders:<br>
Conservative, Liberal, New Democratic (like the British Labour<br>
Party), and a small new party called the Alberta Wild Rose Party,<br>
which sounded like dogmatic libertarians. There were frequent<br>
questions about problems with health care but no one, not even the<br>
libertarian, proposed that their "socialized" medicine be scrapped<br>
and Alberta return to the old American-style system they had <br>
before.<br>
In fact, it was the Conservatives who had set it up in the first <br>
place!<br>
<br>
Later, on March 3, the Conservatives were not only returned to <br>
power;<br>
they gained 11 new seats! Wouldn't it be nice if our conservatives<br>
learned something from the Province of Alberta?<br>
<br>
Ralph Nielsen<br>
<br>
=======================================================<br>
List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>
http://www.fsr.net <br>
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>
=======================================================<o:p></o:p></p>
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