<DIV>Saundra,</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What exactly did I say that contradicts what you said below? The reason people are going broke is because medical costs are too high, due to greed. It is not because people are dying at a higher rate than they were 30 years. In fact, people are living longer.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Poorer people are charged more for medical care than those with heath insurance, that is fact, don't believe me, call your insurance company, or any insurance company, and they will tell confirm what I say.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Best Regards,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Donovan</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Saundra Lund
<sslund_2007@verizon.net></I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <META content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)" name=Generator> <STYLE> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </STYLE> <STYLE> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Verdana; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p {mso-style-priority:99; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; margin-left:0in; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} span.EmailStyle18 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} p.textbodyblack3, li.textbodyblack3, div.textbodyblack3 {mso-style-name:textbodyblack3; mso-margin-top-alt:auto; margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:11.25pt; margin-left:0in; line-height:150%; font-size:9.5pt; font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"; color:black;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </STYLE> <DIV class=Section1> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Actually, Donovan, I think
you are mistaken. While this article is a couple of years old, the stat breakdown still hold according to the ABI:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6895896/">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6895896/</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Note:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">“</SPAN>Costly illnesses trigger about half of all personal bankruptcies, and <B>most of those who go bankrupt because of medical problems have health insurance</B>, according to findings from a Harvard University study to be released
Wednesday. . . Most of those seeking court protection from creditors had health insurance, with more than three-quarters reporting they had coverage at the start of the illness that triggered bankruptcy. . . Out-of-pocket medical expenses covering co-payments, deductibles and uncovered health services averaged $13,460 for bankruptcy filers who had private insurance at the onset of illness, compared with $10,893 for those without coverage. Those who initially had private coverage but lost it during their illness faced the highest cost, an average of $18,005. . . The findings indicate medical-related bankruptcies hit middle-class families hard — 56 percent of the filers owned a home, and the same number had attended college. “Families with coverage faced unaffordable co-payments, deductibles and bills for uncovered items like physical therapy, psychiatric care and prescription drugs,” Himmelstein said.””<o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">The state of health care in this country is a national disgrace, but it really gets tiresome, Donovan, for you to continually fail to recognize that the middle-class is being hit <B>very</B> hard, harder than the poor by all factual reports, with respect to bankruptcy due to medical expenses.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Furthermore, those parents forced into relinquishing parental rights to ensure that their children have access to appropriate medical care for chronic conditions are overwhelmingly middle-class families with health insurance. This particular horror is something the poor are actually spared.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Another instance is the cost of medications. For those without health insurance, there are many patient assistance programs available. I know two people taking identical medications: one gets the medications free through patient assistance programs, and the other with health insurance will pay in excess of $300 per month <B>after</B> meeting a $1500 deductible. Their annual incomes are about $1100 apart.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">If you have more current factual information, I’m all ears (or eyes, as the case may be).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d;
FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">You are, however, correct, IMHO, that the greed possible in an unfettered free market is responsible for our US unconscionable health care costs.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Saundra Lund<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Moscow, ID<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">~ Edmund Burke<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2008 through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the author.*****<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></DIV> <DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <DIV class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Donovan Arnold<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 21, 2008 7:53 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Ralph Nielsen; Vision 2020<BR><B>Cc:</B> Donovan Arnold<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Health care<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal>Ralph,<o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal>The reason that charity doesn't pay for medical care of the poor is because we charge outrageous rates for medical
care.<o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal>No, my band-aid example is grounded in reality, although exaggerated to make a point. Hospitals overcharge the uninsured, that is a fact. The reason they do this is because they know that they will only recover a certain percentage of the actual cost of providing them care. This strategy obviously hurts the poor more than those that are wealthier and can afford health insurance.<o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal>Health insurance companies enable doctors and health care providers to charge fees not otherwise affordable to 90% of the public, and putting the poor into medical bankruptcy. <o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal>You cannot apply the Canadian system of health care to that of the United States. It
would not work. Greed is the simple reason for our health care system being unaffordable to the average citizen, it is that simple. <o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal>Best Regards,<o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal>Donovan<BR><BR><B><I>Ralph Nielsen <nielsen@uidaho.edu></I></B> wrote:<o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <DIV class=MsoNormal><BR>Dear Donovan,<BR><BR>I don't know where you get these ideas, but they are not grounded on <BR>reality. If you imagine that charity will pay for the poor, why are <BR>over 40 million Americans without health care insurance
of any kind? <BR>And why are millions more bankrupted by doctor and hospital bills <BR>that their insurance companies refuse to pay? I think your band-aid <BR>example is absurd.<BR><BR>For some first-hand information on how universal medicare works in <BR>the Province of British Columbia, please read the first two articles <BR>on this web site. They are written by an American citizen who lives <BR>in BC and is familiar with both systems. And please note, Donovan, <BR>the Canadian system does not benefit the rich while hurting the poor, <BR>as you claim below. Please get your facts first.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Ralph<BR><BR><BR>Ralph,<BR><BR>Universal Health Care, and Universal Health Coverage are two <BR>totally different things. Forcing people to buy health insurance <BR>doesn't cure anybody, it just makes doctors and insurance companies <BR>even wealthier than they are.<BR><BR>I am 100% against forced health insurance purchasing, because it <BR>will not help the poor and will
just be another tax benefiting the <BR>rich while hurting the poor.<BR><BR>The problem is not how can we pay for a $60 band-aid, but rather, <BR>why we cannot reduce the cost of the band-aid to 60 cents, or even <BR>$6.00. If you bring down the cost of the band-aid, the middle class <BR>can afford health insurance and charity can afford to cover the poor.<BR><BR>Best Regards,<BR><BR>Donovan<BR><BR>Ralph Nielsen wrote:<BR>I thought it was a very informative program in that it covered a<BR>variety of systems for universal coverage. Unfortunately, most<BR>Americans seem to have been indoctrinated with the idea the <BR>universal<BR>health insurance is "socialized medicine," and therefore to be<BR>avoided like poison A couple of months ago a repairman at my house<BR>used that term with an air of dislike. So I asked hem what he meant<BR>by that term. He replied that it means that all doctors will be<BR>working for the government.<BR><BR>So I told him about my Canadian brother,
who is a self-made<BR>millionaire, and lives in the Okanagan Valley, just north of the<BR>Washington border. About a year ago he had a hip replacement. He <BR>had<BR>to wait less than a month because he was willing to go to a younger<BR>doctor instead of an older, more popular one. Most Canadian doctors<BR>do not work for the government, they work for themselves. Only the<BR>insurance is paid by the government, like our Medicare, and ALL<BR>residents are covered, not just the rich, as down here. This is <BR>paid<BR>for by income taxes, which, of course, are based on ability to pay,<BR>and everybody is covered, regardless of income.<BR><BR>Last month there was a provincial election in Alberta, where the<BR>Conservative Party has been in power for 37 years. In February they<BR>called for a provincial election on March 3. I listened on my<BR>internet radio to a 2-hour debate between the party leaders:<BR>Conservative, Liberal, New Democratic (like the British
Labour<BR>Party), and a small new party called the Alberta Wild Rose Party,<BR>which sounded like dogmatic libertarians. There were frequent<BR>questions about problems with health care but no one, not even the<BR>libertarian, proposed that their "socialized" medicine be scrapped<BR>and Alberta return to the old American-style system they had <BR>before.<BR>In fact, it was the Conservatives who had set it up in the first <BR>place!<BR><BR>Later, on March 3, the Conservatives were not only returned to <BR>power;<BR>they gained 11 new seats! Wouldn't it be nice if our conservatives<BR>learned something from the Province of Alberta?<BR><BR>Ralph Nielsen<BR><BR>=======================================================<BR>List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <BR>http://www.fsr.net <BR>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>=======================================================<o:p></o:p></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV
class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></DIV> <DIV> <o:p></o:p></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center> <HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=1> </DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal>Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. <A href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http:/mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20">Try it now.</A><o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p> 
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