<DIV>Keely writes:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"While God is over all things, a nation that permits the violence, poverty, and environmental degradation that the U.S. does clearly isn't taking "under God" very seriously."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keely, I don't think the pledge is what we are, but rather, what we aspire to be. If we took out everything from the pledge that we felt short of fulfilling, it be would be about six words. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best Regards,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Donovan</DIV> <DIV><BR><BR><B><I>keely emerinemix <kjajmix1@msn.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <STYLE> .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } </STYLE> But the addition of "under God," no matter how strongly I believe in and worship God, is not only an endorsement
of a particular Deity, making this an example of state-sponsored religious exercise, but also isn't accurate. While God is over all things, a nation that permits the violence, poverty, and environmental degradation that the U.S. does clearly isn't taking "under God" very seriously. Which, I believe, proves my earlier point.<BR><BR>And no -- no action or inaction on the part of our country ever justifies terrorist attacks against it or its people, just in case anyone thinks I'm pulling a Falwell/Robertson thing regarding 9/11 and judgment. Terror and violence are hideous things, and we who deplore 9/11 ought to demonstrate our hatred of it by doing all we can to repent of our country's warring response to it.<BR><BR>Keely <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 19:51:52 -0700<BR>From: donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
pledge (was Satanism)<BR>To: kjajmix1@msn.com; suehovey@moscow.com; godshatter@yahoo.com<BR>CC: vision2020@moscow.com; donaledwards@hotmail.com<BR><BR> <DIV>Keely,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree that you should not pledge allegiance to anything over God, just allegiance to something "Under God". </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is not to show you care more about God than the country, but the USA over any other country. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best Regards,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Donovan<BR><BR><B><I>keely emerinemix <kjajmix1@msn.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=EC_replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"> <STYLE> .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_body.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;} </STYLE> Actually, I believe it's at best problematic for Christians to say the Pledge of Allegiance. We may love our country, but if we take
Scripture and our beliefs in Christ seriously, we ought not ever promise our allegiance to anything other than to God. Promises and pledges and oaths and vows within the framework of God's sovereignty and supremacy are permitted <SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic">for those who identify themselves as believers, </SPAN>but it is not possible to swear allegiance to anything that exists out of the realm of the Kingdom of God and still be a faithful believer. Nor is it OK to just stand up and recite the pledge or anything else as an exercise in rote group-think, no matter how noble the words appear. A Christian might earnestly believe that State should be accorded such binding, unwavering loyalty, but she would be wrong. More wrong than that is the idea that the pledge, or any other civil ritual, is "no big deal." <BR><BR>It's a big deal to promise something in error, and a bigger deal to promise and consider it not terribly significant because it's
just "what people do." And that's the danger of any civil-generated, supported, endorsed, or required religious practice -- people get lured into the counterfeit, or become so dull of conscience that nothing much matters. It's disturbing to see that the most loyal pledge-reciters and defenders of the material flag are professed believers in Christ. Getting this one wrong makes it easier to get all the subsequent things wrong, and that first step of misguided patriotic expression has put this nation and the Church on a long, painful, and harmful path.<BR><BR>I love my country -- but Christ has my eternal allegiance. I love my husband -- but Christ has my eternal allegiance. I love my church, but Christ has my eternal allegiance. Should loving (being united with, committing to, etc.) any of them pit me against submission to Christ, then they must be set aside. It rarely, of course, comes to that, but the words we say do matter,
and empty exercises of civic religion demonstrate no religion at all.<BR><BR>Keely<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> <BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> From: suehovey@moscow.com<BR>To: donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com; godshatter@yahoo.com<BR>Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 18:25:08 -1000<BR>CC: vision2020@moscow.com; donaledwards@hotmail.com<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Satanism Was: Of, By<BR><BR> <STYLE> </STYLE> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Donovan, </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The Pledge of Allegiance was formalized in 1892 and for the next 62 years it was spoken by Americans everywhere with feeling and patriotic accord even though it did not contain the words, "under God." That didn't happen until 1954 when President Eisenhower signed the proclamation into law. Many of us grew up reciting the original words in Sunday School, elementary classrooms, and Girl Scout meetings and we felt no less
patriotic, nor did we feel the Pledge was in some way incomplete. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I do not believe the addition of the words, "under God," made it more appropriate or more expansive. We need to be very careful when giving God credit for the direction this nation has chosen throughout it's oftentimes turbulent history. Personally, I know of no historical evidence that God ever sent anyone a message indicating a revision of the Pledge was necessary.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sue H. </FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial;
moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>From:</B> <A title=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">Donovan Arnold</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B> <A title=godshatter@yahoo.com href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul Rumelhart</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> ; <A title=donaledwards@hotmail.com href="mailto:donaledwards@hotmail.com">donaledwards@hotmail.com</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 16, 2008 6:03 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[Vision2020] Satanism Was: Of, By</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Paul,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You write,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"I can sympathize with the people who wish to take "Under God" out of the <BR>Pledge. If it was simply the original wording from way back when, it <BR>wouldn't really be a problem. However, it was placed there relatively <BR>recently (1940's?). I think that was a mistake and should probably be <BR>rectified."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The words, "Under God" have been in the pledge much longer than they have not been in the pledge. Further, why is something invalid because it was done after 1940? Are the men that fought in World War II not just as worthy of adding to the pledge and American tradition as the original author of the Pledge? They were put there for a reason, to reflect the wishes and beliefs of the American people. Might I also add, that most the vocals against the word "God" in the pledge won't say the pledge
anyway. So let the 95%+ of the population say it the way they want, not have to say it the way the other 5% want us to say it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"I also don't think the idea is to weed God out of our daily lives. Just <BR>let the government stay neutral. Protecting the rights of citizens to <BR>worship as they wish was one of the major driving forces of the founding <BR>of this country. Keeping the government neutral was meant to help that, <BR>not hinder it."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think it is the idea of Atheists to weed out theism, of any kind, that is why they are called "a" theists, not pro-theists. They want to rid us of tax supported churches, tax supported cemeteries, tax supported chaplains in the military, and tax supported prayer of any kind. I don't see where you get the idea that the government should be agnostic, or neutral instead of pro-God. This is suppose to be a representative government. The vast
majority, 90% +, believe in God, and want Him in their daily lives. Weeding Him out, as many Atheists are trying to do, is an infringement on the rights of 90% of the people that want an opportunity to be reminded and to pray.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do agree that the government should be neutral on which religion people follow, not push one over the other. But we have to have God in this country, because otherwise we are restricting religion. Restricting God from government is not freedom of religion, it is an annihilation of it. Freedom of Religion, not Freedom from Religion. <BR><BR>Best Regards,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Donovan</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR><B><I>Paul Rumelhart <godshatter@yahoo.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=EC_EC_replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">I would like to split what you are saying into two separate subjects, <BR>because I have a different
response for each. The two subjects are <BR>Church and State, and Overly Aggressive Political Correctness.<BR><BR>I can sympathize with the people who wish to take "Under God" out of the <BR>Pledge. If it was simply the original wording from way back when, it <BR>wouldn't really be a problem. However, it was placed there relatively <BR>recently (1940's?). I think that was a mistake and should probably be <BR>rectified. Like Chas, though, I don't consider it worth the effort. I <BR>also don't care much about the "In God We Trust" on the currency. It <BR>would spend the same way if it said "In Allah We Trust" or "In Big Juju <BR>We Trust". The thing that kills me about this topic is that if <BR>Christianity was a minority religion and some other religion was being <BR>favored in our classrooms and on our currency, they would all be up in <BR>arms. That's the reason Church and State need to be separated.<BR><BR>On the topic of political correctness, I can agree. Although I
<BR>celebrate the Winter Solstice with probably the same amount of fervor as <BR>your average Christian celebrates Christmas, I don't care much if <BR>someone say "Merry Christmas" to me. I take it in the spirit it was <BR>given. If someone wishes me a happy Kwanzaa, I'll take it the same way.<BR><BR>I also don't think the idea is to weed God out of our daily lives. Just <BR>let the government stay neutral. Protecting the rights of citizens to <BR>worship as they wish was one of the major driving forces of the founding <BR>of this country. Keeping the government neutral was meant to help that, <BR>not hinder it. <BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>Donovan Arnold wrote:<BR>> Satan's greatest trick was to convince people that he doesn't exist. I <BR>> think Satanism, is, for the most part, the same as Atheism.<BR>> <BR>> What Satan wants is to remove God, all things related to him, and in <BR>> our daily thoughts completely. To make us about ourselves, and the <BR>> world
we live in.<BR>> <BR>> Atheists are best at doing this. They have made God very unpopular in <BR>> this country. You cannot even say, "Merry Christmas" without <BR>> subjecting yourself to a potential lawsuit.<BR>> <BR>> Separation of Church from State was designed to protect our religion <BR>> from being indoctrinated and controlled by the government, not to weed <BR>> God out of our daily lives and thinking, which is what is happening, <BR>> sadly, all over this country, and you can see the negative impact it <BR>> is having.<BR>> <BR>> Best Regards,<BR>> <BR>> Donovan<BR>><BR>> */Chasuk /* wrote:<BR>><BR>> > Also, you may want to read up on modern-day Satanists. I know a<BR>> couple<BR>> > of them. There is a big difference between LaVey Satanism and the<BR>> > mostly-non-existent Luciferian Satanism portrayed in bad B<BR>> movies. It's<BR>> > not my cup of tea, but it has some aspects to
it that I can respect.<BR>><BR>> I've known several Satanists, and most of them were just atheists with<BR>> a peculiar sense of humor, combined with a desire to shock. None of<BR>> them were the B movies types.<BR>><BR>> =======================================================<BR>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<BR>> http://www.fsr.net<BR>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> =======================================================<BR>><BR>><BR>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try <BR>> it now. <BR>> <BR><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR SIZE=1> Looking for last minute shopping deals? <A href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping" target=_blank>Find them fast with
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