<html>
<head>
<style>
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma
}
</style>
</head>
<body class='hmmessage'>
Actually, I believe it's at best problematic for Christians to say the Pledge of Allegiance. We may love our country, but if we take Scripture and our beliefs in Christ seriously, we ought not ever promise our allegiance to anything other than to God. Promises and pledges and oaths and vows within the framework of God's sovereignty and supremacy are permitted <span style="font-style: italic;">for those who identify themselves as believers, </span>but it is not possible to swear allegiance to anything that exists out of the realm of the Kingdom of God and still be a faithful believer. Nor is it OK to just stand up and recite the pledge or anything else as an exercise in rote group-think, no matter how noble the words appear. A Christian might earnestly believe that State should be accorded such binding, unwavering loyalty, but she would be wrong. More wrong than that is the idea that the pledge, or any other civil ritual, is "no big deal." <br><br>It's a big deal to promise something in error, and a bigger deal to promise and consider it not terribly significant because it's just "what people do." And that's the danger of any civil-generated, supported, endorsed, or required religious practice -- people get lured into the counterfeit, or become so dull of conscience that nothing much matters. It's disturbing to see that the most loyal pledge-reciters and defenders of the material flag are professed believers in Christ. Getting this one wrong makes it easier to get all the subsequent things wrong, and that first step of misguided patriotic expression has put this nation and the Church on a long, painful, and harmful path.<br><br>I love my country -- but Christ has my eternal allegiance. I love my husband -- but Christ has my eternal allegiance. I love my church, but Christ has my eternal allegiance. Should loving (being united with, committing to, etc.) any of them pit me against submission to Christ, then they must be set aside. It rarely, of course, comes to that, but the words we say do matter, and empty exercises of civic religion demonstrate no religion at all.<br><br>Keely<br><br><br><br><br> <br><br><blockquote><hr>From: suehovey@moscow.com<br>To: donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com; godshatter@yahoo.com<br>Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 18:25:08 -1000<br>CC: vision2020@moscow.com; donaledwards@hotmail.com<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Satanism Was: Of, By<br><br>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=unicode">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft SafeHTML">
<style>
</style>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Donovan, </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">The Pledge of Allegiance was formalized in 1892 and
for the next 62 years it was spoken by Americans everywhere with feeling and
patriotic accord even though it did not contain the words, "under
God." That didn't happen until 1954 when President Eisenhower signed the
proclamation into law. Many of us grew up reciting the original words in
Sunday School, elementary classrooms, and Girl Scout meetings and we felt no
less patriotic, nor did we feel the Pledge was in some way incomplete.
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I do not believe the addition of the words, "under
God," made it more appropriate or more expansive. We need to be very
careful when giving God credit for the direction this nation has chosen
throughout it's oftentimes turbulent history. Personally, I know of no
historical evidence that God ever sent anyone a message indicating a revision of
the Pledge was necessary.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Sue H. </font></div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a title="donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">Donovan Arnold</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b> <a title="godshatter@yahoo.com" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul Rumelhart</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a> ; <a title="donaledwards@hotmail.com" href="mailto:donaledwards@hotmail.com">donaledwards@hotmail.com</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 16, 2008 6:03
PM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Satanism Was:
Of, By</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Paul,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>You write,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>"I can sympathize with the people who wish to take "Under God" out of the
<br>Pledge. If it was simply the original wording from way back when, it
<br>wouldn't really be a problem. However, it was placed there relatively
<br>recently (1940's?). I think that was a mistake and should probably be
<br>rectified."</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The words, "Under God" have been in the pledge much longer than they have
not been in the pledge. Further, why is something invalid because it was done
after 1940? Are the men that fought in World War II not just as worthy of
adding to the pledge and American tradition as the original author of the
Pledge? They were put there for a reason, to reflect the wishes and beliefs of
the American people. Might I also add, that most the vocals against the word
"God" in the pledge won't say the pledge anyway. So let the 95%+ of the
population say it the way they want, not have to say it the way the
other 5% want us to say it. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>"I also don't think the idea is to weed God out of our daily lives. Just
<br>let the government stay neutral. Protecting the rights of citizens to
<br>worship as they wish was one of the major driving forces of the founding
<br>of this country. Keeping the government neutral was meant to help that,
<br>not hinder it."</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I think it is the idea of Atheists to weed out theism, of any kind, that
is why they are called "a" theists, not pro-theists. They want to rid us of
tax supported churches, tax supported cemeteries, tax supported chaplains in
the military, and tax supported prayer of any kind. I don't see
where you get the idea that the government should be agnostic, or neutral
instead of pro-God. This is suppose to be a representative government. The
vast majority, 90% +, believe in God, and want Him in their daily lives.
Weeding Him out, as many Atheists are trying to do, is an infringement
on the rights of 90% of the people that want an opportunity to be reminded and
to pray.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I do agree that the government should be neutral on which religion people
follow, not push one over the other. But we have to have God in this country,
because otherwise we are restricting religion. Restricting God from government
is not freedom of religion, it is an annihilation of it. Freedom of Religion,
not Freedom from Religion. <br><br>Best Regards,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Donovan</div>
<div> </div>
<div><br><b><i>Paul Rumelhart <godshatter@yahoo.com></i></b>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="EC_replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">I
would like to split what you are saying into two separate subjects,
<br>because I have a different response for each. The two subjects are
<br>Church and State, and Overly Aggressive Political Correctness.<br><br>I
can sympathize with the people who wish to take "Under God" out of the
<br>Pledge. If it was simply the original wording from way back when, it
<br>wouldn't really be a problem. However, it was placed there relatively
<br>recently (1940's?). I think that was a mistake and should probably be
<br>rectified. Like Chas, though, I don't consider it worth the effort. I
<br>also don't care much about the "In God We Trust" on the currency. It
<br>would spend the same way if it said "In Allah We Trust" or "In Big Juju
<br>We Trust". The thing that kills me about this topic is that if
<br>Christianity was a minority religion and some other religion was being
<br>favored in our classrooms and on our currency, they would all be up in
<br>arms. That's the reason Church and State need to be separated.<br><br>On
the topic of political correctness, I can agree. Although I <br>celebrate
the Winter Solstice with probably the same amount of fervor as <br>your
average Christian celebrates Christmas, I don't care much if <br>someone say
"Merry Christmas" to me. I take it in the spirit it was <br>given. If
someone wishes me a happy Kwanzaa, I'll take it the same way.<br><br>I also
don't think the idea is to weed God out of our daily lives. Just <br>let the
government stay neutral. Protecting the rights of citizens to <br>worship as
they wish was one of the major driving forces of the founding <br>of this
country. Keeping the government neutral was meant to help that, <br>not
hinder it. <br><br>Paul<br><br>Donovan Arnold wrote:<br>> Satan's
greatest trick was to convince people that he doesn't exist. I <br>>
think Satanism, is, for the most part, the same as Atheism.<br>> <br>>
What Satan wants is to remove God, all things related to him, and in
<br>> our daily thoughts completely. To make us about ourselves, and the
<br>> world we live in.<br>> <br>> Atheists are best at doing this.
They have made God very unpopular in <br>> this country. You cannot even
say, "Merry Christmas" without <br>> subjecting yourself to a potential
lawsuit.<br>> <br>> Separation of Church from State was designed to
protect our religion <br>> from being indoctrinated and controlled by the
government, not to weed <br>> God out of our daily lives and thinking,
which is what is happening, <br>> sadly, all over this country, and you
can see the negative impact it <br>> is having.<br>> <br>> Best
Regards,<br>> <br>> Donovan<br>><br>> */Chasuk
/* wrote:<br>><br>> > Also, you may want to read
up on modern-day Satanists. I know a<br>> couple<br>> > of them.
There is a big difference between LaVey Satanism and the<br>> >
mostly-non-existent Luciferian Satanism portrayed in bad B<br>> movies.
It's<br>> > not my cup of tea, but it has some aspects to it that I
can respect.<br>><br>> I've known several Satanists, and most of them
were just atheists with<br>> a peculiar sense of humor, combined with a
desire to shock. None of<br>> them were the B movies
types.<br>><br>>
=======================================================<br>> List
services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> http://www.fsr.net<br>>
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>>
=======================================================<br>><br>><br>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>>
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
<br>> it now. <br>> <br><br><br><br></blockquote><br>
<BR><hr size="1">
Looking for last minute shopping deals? <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51734/*http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping" target="_blank">Find
them fast with Yahoo! Search.</a>
<BR><hr>
<BR>=======================================================<br> List
services made available by First Step Internet, <br> serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<br>
http://www.fsr.net
<br>
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>=======================================================</blockquote>
</blockquote><br /><hr />Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! <a href='http://biggestloser.msn.com/' target='_new'>Learn more.</a></body>
</html>