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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Yep, fine record of Christian behavior. Makes me proud to
be a Wiccan. So far as I know, no practicing Wiccan has ever engaged in
massacres, depopulations, genocides, religious wars resulting in the death of
anyone, stonings, or even imprecatory prayers. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I'm sure all those who participated in the "events"
cited by Donald actually believed they were doing their God's work. I give
my metaphorical Goddess a bit more credit. If She wants someone smitten, She
will bloody well do it herself. She doesn't need a deluded bunch of rabble to
stone, cut with shards of glass, or disembowel someone for her. Notice how all
those things sound like ritual sacrifice gone awry? The only thing Wiccans
sacrifice is the ability (unlike Christians) to delude themselves into
believing they can hurt others with no repercussions when their diety
(through the reports of the priests) demands it. We Wiccans know we are
responsible for our own actions, and will answer for them in the here and now
(sometimes that's just our own conscience bothering us, because we hold a very
high standard of acceptable behaviour!)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>And the religious right thinks WICCANS are evil? They
think Muslims are problematic? They need to get a grip, look at their own
congregation, have some personal insight, and stop wrapping themselves in Bible
verses to justify both idiocy and egregious behaviour. Blame shifting and
obfuscation can cover a host of sins. And if you are the "authority" who is
never questioned or called to task, you begin to believe your own BS. Just ask
all those "pastors" who have been brought low by being caught in sex scandals,
money laundering, and other activities which they continuously condemn from the
pulpit! Hubris? Stupidity? Maybe just snake oil salesmen who eventually get
tarred, feathered, and ridden out of town on a rail.....Promise the fools heaven
and, though it takes them a long time to realize you can't deliver, eventually
they get tired of being blamed for not being "good and pious enough" to get what
was promised. Saying imprecatory prayers to have their "enemies" harmed ("May
their children beg for bread in empty places" is one I recall) begins to pall as
the situation becomes increasingly distasteful. Not everyone will stay to drink
the Koolaide and not everyone will be bullied... Somehow, though, with the
Christian ideologues in charge, folks sometimes die in the process.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Whether it's the Catholic Church, the Evangelicals, or the
Crusaders, it still becomes a means to control others, through fear, with
the hope of "something better". Never delivered, never ending, God as punishing
Bad Daddy, God as classist and racist, God as a means to a selfish end.....what
a flaming crock!!! If Christ hadn't risen, He would now be rotating at 20000
rpms over the perversion of his teachings.!!!!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Debi R-S</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=donaledwards@hotmail.com
href="mailto:donaledwards@hotmail.com">donald edwards</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com
href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">Donovan Arnold</A> ; <A
title=lfalen@turbonet.com href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com">lfalen</A> ; <A
title=thansen@moscow.com href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">Tom Hansen</A> ; <A
title=chasuk@gmail.com href="mailto:chasuk@gmail.com">Chasuk</A> ; <A
title=godshatter@yahoo.com
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</A> ; <A
title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 14, 2008 9:04
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Of, By
&</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>"I think it is important that leaders of men know what is right
and wrong, and understand it is something fixed, something factual, not
something that can move based on what they think is right and wrong at the
moment." <BR> <BR>This statement has been proven by the
un-biased, non-judging and morally high leadership standards of our
wonderful president. Gosh, I can't even think of one instance
of hypocrytisism evidenced in his eight years as our leader of the FREE
world.<BR> <BR>Religious influence has absolutely no place in the proper
and fair governing of the people, it tends to lead to a small faction deciding
what is right or wrong for everyone when actually we do have certain
inalienable rights and uphold these truth's to be self evident that ALL men
are granted equal rights within their own limitations, not to be decided by
the deciderer. <BR> <BR>Most of us should just admit that we don't
know a thing but what has been spoonfed to us which leaves open the
possibility that there is much more to be learned. This seems better
than thinking we already know all so we stop questioning the answers.
Anytime someone thinks they have the "Truth" above anyone else it seems to
just be destructive and polarizes people instead of looking for what they have
in common.<BR> <BR><SPAN class=body>"A dictatorship would be a heck of a
lot easier, there's no question about it."</SPAN> <BR><SPAN class=bodybold><A
href="http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/g/georgewbu384703.html"><U><FONT
color=#810081>George W. Bush</FONT></U></A> </SPAN><BR> <BR>
<HR noShade>
<BR><BR>Listed are only events that solely occurred on command or
participation of church authorities or were committed in the name of
Christianity. (List incomplete) <BR>
<P><FONT size=+1><B>Ancient Pagans</B></FONT> <BR>
<HR align=left width="40%" noShade>
<P><BR><BR> <BR><BR>
<UL><BR>
<LI>As soon as Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire by imperial
edict (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob.
Pagan priests were killed. <BR>
<LI>Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
<BR>
<LI>Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the
Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis. <BR>
<LI>Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were
famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468] <BR>
<LI>Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468] <BR>
<LI>Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed,
because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues.
[DA469]<BR>According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all
Christian teachings..." <BR>
<LI>In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights. <BR>
<LI>In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on
demand of Christian authorities. [DA466] <BR>
<LI>The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to
pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian
minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.<BR>[DO19-25]</LI></UL>
<P><BR> <BR><FONT size=+1><B>Mission</B></FONT> <BR>
<HR align=left width="40%" noShade>
<P><BR><BR> <BR><BR>
<UL><BR>
<LI>Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert
to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30] <BR>
<LI>Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes:
between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near
Altenesch/Germany. [WW223] <BR>
<LI>15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by
Knights of the Order. Number of victims unknown. [DO30] <BR>
<LI>16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized"
Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without
any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle,
women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers,
a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that
"the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed
in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied
on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish
indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of
their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the
grounde".<BR>Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage.
[SH99, 225]</LI></UL>
<P><BR> <BR><FONT size=+1><B>Crusades (1095-1291)</B></FONT> <BR>
<HR align=left width="40%" noShade>
<P><BR><BR> <BR><BR>
<UL><BR>
<LI>First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41] <BR>
<LI>Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96
thousands. [WW23] <BR>
<LI>9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then Turkish), thousands
respectively. [WW25-27] <BR>
<LI>Until January 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles
conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30] <BR>
<LI>After 6/3/98 Antiochia (then Turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and
60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women and children) killed.
<BR>[WW32-35]<BR>Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found
in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their
bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60] <BR>
<LI>Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the
subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by
the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36] <BR>
<LI>Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (Jewish, Muslim,
men, women, children). [WW37-40]<BR>In the words of one witness: "there [in
front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading
ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for
joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off
our debt of gratitude." <BR>
<LI>The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look
upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments
of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the
slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs
strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them.
Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping
with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all
who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about
ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79] <BR>
<LI>Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following
summer in all of Palestine the air was polluted by the stench of
decomposition". [WW41] <BR>
<LI>Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. Thousands of heathens slaughtered "in the
name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45] <BR>
<LI>Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims
unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148] <BR>
<LI><B><A name=Crusades>Crusades</A></B> (1095-1291)<BR>
<UL><BR>
<LI>Estimated totals:<BR>
<UL><BR>
<LI>Wertham: 1,000,000<BR>
<LI>Charles Mackay, <I>Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and
the<BR>Madness of Crowds</I> (1841): 2,000,000 Europeans killed. [<FONT
size=-1>http://www.bootlegbooks.com/NonFiction/Mackay/PopDelusions/chap09.html</FONT>]<BR>
<LI>Aletheia, <I>The Rationalist's Manual</I>: 5,000,000</LI></UL><BR>
<LI>Individual Events:<BR>
<UL><BR>
<LI>Davies: Crusaders killed up to 8,000 Jews in Rhineland<BR>
<LI>Paul Johnson <I>A History of the Jews</I> (1987): 1,000 Jewish women
in<BR>Rhineland comm. suicide to avoid the mob, 1096.<BR>
<LI>Gibbon, <I>Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire</I>, v.5, 6<BR>
<UL><BR>
<LI>1st Crusade: 300,000 Eur. k at Battle of Nice [Nicea].<BR>
<LI>Crusaders vs. Solimon of Roum: 4,000 Christians, 3,000
Moslems<BR><BR>
<LI>1098, Fall of Antioch: 100,000 Moslems massacred.<BR>
<LI>50,000 Pilgrims died of disease.<BR>
<LI>1099, Fall of Jerusalem: 70,000 Moslems massacred.<BR>
<LI>Siege of Tiberias: 30,000 Christians k.<BR>
<LI>Siege of Tyre: 1,000 Turks<BR>
<LI>Richard the Lionhearted executes 3,000 Moslem POWs.<BR>
<LI>1291: 100,000 Christians k after fall of Acre.<BR>
<LI>Fall of Christian Antioch: 17,000 massacred.<BR>
<LI>[TOTAL: 677,000 listed in these episodes here.]</LI></UL><BR>
<LI>Catholic Encyclopedia (1910) [<FONT
size=-2>http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/</FONT>]<BR>
<UL><BR>
<LI>Jaffa: 20,000 Christians massacred, 1197</LI></UL><BR>
<LI>Sorokin estimates that French, English & Imperial German
Crusaders lost<BR>a total of 3,600 in battle.<BR>
<UL><BR>
<LI>1st C (1096-99): 400<BR>
<LI>2nd C (1147-49): 750<BR>
<LI>3rd C (1189-91): 930<BR>
<LI>4th C (1202-04): 120<BR>
<LI>5th C (1228-29): 600<BR>
<LI>7th C (1248-54): 700</LI></UL><BR>
<LI>James Trager, <I>The People's Chronology</I> (1992)<BR>
<UL><BR>
<LI>1099: Crusaders slaughter 40,000 inhabs of Jerusalem. Dis/starv
reduced<BR>Crusaders from 300,000 to 60,000.<BR>
<LI>1147: 2nd Crusades begins with 500,000. "Most" lost
to<BR>starv./disease/battle.<BR>
<LI>1190: 500 Jews massacred in York.<BR>
<LI>1192: 3rd Crusade reduced from 100,000 to 5,000 through famine,
plagues and<BR>desertions in campaign vs Antioch.<BR>
<LI>1212: Children's Crusade loses some 50,000.<BR>
<LI>[TOTAL: Just in these incidents, it appears the Europeans lost
around<BR>650,000.]</LI></UL></LI></UL></LI></UL><BR>
<UL><BR>
<LI>TOTAL: When I take all the individual death tolls listed here, weed
out<BR>the duplicates, fill in the blanks, apply Occam (<I>"Pluralitas non
est<BR>ponenda sine necessitate"</I>), etc. I get a very rough total of 1½
M<BR>deaths in the Crusades.</LI></UL><BR></LI></UL>
<P><BR> <BR><BR>
<P><FONT size=+1><B>Heretics and Atheists</B></FONT> <BR>
<HR align=left width="40%" noShade>
<P><BR><BR> <BR><BR>
<UL><BR>
<LI>Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and
six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26] <BR>
<LI>Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice
birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was
exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E.
and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC] <BR>
<LI>Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians.
[DO29]<BR>The Albigensians (Cathars) viewed themselves as good Christians,
but would not accept Roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of
birth control. [NC]<BR>Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III
(the greatest single mass murderer prior to the Nazi era) in 1209. Beziérs
(today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, <I>all</I> the inhabitants were
slaughtered. Number of victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over
their heretic <BR>neighbors and friends) estimated between 20,000-70,000.
[WW179-181]
<LI>Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
<BR>
<LI>Subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the
population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated.
[WW183] <BR><BR>
<LI>After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search
and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake
1324. <BR>[WW183] <BR>
<LI>Estimated one million victims (Cathar heresy alone), [WW183] <BR>
<LI>Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and
many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians
live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at
least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but
excluding victims in the New World). <BR>
<LI>Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada, a former Dominican friar, allegedly was
responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28] <BR>
<LI>John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned
at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522] <BR>
<LI>Michael Sattler, leader of a baptist community, was burned at the stake
in Rottenburg, Germany, May 20, 1527. Several days later his wife and other
follwers were also executed. [KM] <BR>
<LI>University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna.
[DO59] <BR><BR>
<LI>Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven
years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on
2/17/1600. <BR>
<LI>Thomas Aikenhead, a twenty-year-old scottish student of Edinburgh
University, was hanged for atheism and blasphemy. </LI></UL>
<P><BR> <BR><FONT size=+1><B>Witches</B></FONT> <BR>
<HR align=left width="40%" noShade>
<P><BR><BR> <BR><BR>
<UL><BR>
<LI>From the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several
thousand. <BR>
<LI>In the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars
several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged.
<BR>[WV] <BR>
<LI>Incomplete list of documented cases:<BR><A
href="http://www.malaspina.com/burning/burnwitc.htm" target=_blank><U>The
Burning of Witches - A Chronicle of the Burning Times</U></A></LI></UL>
<P><BR> <BR><FONT size=+1><B>Religious Wars</B></FONT> <BR>
<HR align=left width="40%" noShade>
<P><BR><BR> <BR><BR>
<UL><BR>
<LI>15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30] <BR>
<LI>1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all
English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action).
[DO31] <BR>
<LI>1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million
rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. [DO31]<BR>Between 5000 and 6000
Protestants were drowned by Spanish Catholic Troops, "a disaster the
burghers of Emden first realized when several thousand broad-brimmed Dutch
hats floated by." [SH216] <BR>
<LI>1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope
Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31] <BR>
<LI>17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader.
After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his
head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river
[...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish,
they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows
of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]
<BR>
<LI>17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly
30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found
beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the
breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191] <BR>
<LI>17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of
population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]</LI></UL>
<P><BR> <BR><FONT size=+1><B>Jews</B></FONT> <BR>
<HR align=left width="40%" noShade>
<P><BR><BR> <BR><BR>
<UL><BR>
<LI>Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by
Christians.Number of Jews slain unknown. <BR>
<LI>In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on
command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first
synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on
command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450] <BR>
<LI> 694 17. Council of Toledo: Jews were enslaved, their property
confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454] <BR>
<LI>1010 The Bishop of Limoges (France) had the cities' Jews, who would not
convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453] <BR>
<LI>1096 First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered, maybe 12.000 total.
Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss,
Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz,
Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France,
Prag/Czech) [EJ] <BR>
<LI>1147 Second Crusade: Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully,
Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57] <BR>
<LI>1189/90 Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked. [DO40] <BR>
<LI>1235, Fulda/Germany: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41] <BR>
<LI>1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton,
Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41] <BR>
<LI>1290 Bohemia (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41] <BR>
<LI>1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns
in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41] <BR>
<LI>1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand)
burned. [DO41] <BR>
<LI>1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned
alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years
of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42] <BR>
<LI>1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42] <BR>
<LI>1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were
slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by
the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all Jews above the age of ten
had been forced to wear. <BR>
<LI>1492 In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than
150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492.
<BR>[MM470-476] <BR>
<LI>1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain.
<BR>[DO43]</LI></UL>
<P><BR> <BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>(I feel sick ...) this goes on and on, century after century,
right into the kilns of Auschwitz.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><BR> <BR><FONT size=+1><B>Native Peoples</B></FONT> <BR>
<HR align=left width="40%" noShade>
<P><BR><BR> <BR><BR>
<UL><BR>
<LI>Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy
Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a
means to propagate Christianity. <BR>
<LI>Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in
the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he
said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians,
because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]<BR>While
Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as
[the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman,
referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry,"
and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205] <BR>
<LI>On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the
declarations that are required" - the <I>requerimiento</I> - to claim the
ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the
Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the
<I>requerimiento</I> continued: <SUB><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>"I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall
powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and
shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do
you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to
receive their lord and resist and contradict him."
[SH66]</BLOCKQUOTE></SUB><BR>
<LI>Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts
Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New
England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to
raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235] <BR>
<LI>In average two thirds of the native population were killed by
colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of
"the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course,
e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the
natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared
our title to what we possess." [SH109,238] <BR>
<LI>On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak),
a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural
resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204] <BR>
<LI>The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and
Spanish raids.
<LI>As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not
be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench
was very great and pestiferous." [SH69] <BR>
<LI>The Indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned
alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to
take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than
descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians
went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70] <BR>
<LI>What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:<BR>"The
Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They
built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent
strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our
Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn
bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]<BR>Or, on another
occasion:<BR>"The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of
another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up
beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus
slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn
to pieces by dogs." [SH83] <BR>
<LI>The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of
Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before
the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were
exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other
caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's
millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a
quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a
single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of
years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75] <BR>
<LI>"And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico
and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of
Tenochtitlán [Mexico city] was next." [SH75] <BR>
<LI>Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other Spanish conquistadors
likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of
Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida). <BR>
<LI>"When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the
Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead."
<BR>[SH95]</LI></UL>
<P><BR> <BR>Of course no different were the founders of what today is the
US of America. <BR>
<UL><BR>
<P><BR>
<LI>Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native
help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among
(north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European
standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the
words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less
bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side".
Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is
more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111] <BR>
<LI>In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the
(generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave
Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live
among them (that probably solved a sex problem).<BR>"Governor Thomas Dale
had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some
burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to
deathe'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for
fellow Englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who wished to act like
Indians. For those who had no <BR>choice in the matter, because they were
the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was
accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the
English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire
community" down. [SH105] <BR>
<LI>On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the
colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout
War." The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from
persecution in their own home country England. <BR>
<LI>When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by
Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the
Indian chief's pledge they attacked.<BR>Somehow they seem to have lost the
idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot
Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made
war on the Pequots and burned their villages.<BR>The puritan
commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a
dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they
would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished
... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his
People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge
among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women,
children. [SH113-114] <BR>
<LI>So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and
to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111]. <BR>
<LI>Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no
need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:<BR>"Thou shalt
save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..."
(Deut 20) <BR>
<LI>Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody
sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that
"sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their
parents". [SH114] <BR>
<LI>Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The
colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour
children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood
Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired
by Spanish methods of the time)<BR>In this way they continued until the
extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119] <BR>
<LI>The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in
servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a
share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if
you thinke good'." [SH115] <BR>
<LI>Other tribes were to follow the same path. <BR>
<LI>Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last
give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his
Beauty!"<BR>"Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to
lick the Dust!" [TA] <BR>
<LI>Like today, lying was morally acceptable to Christians then. "Peace
treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians
'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in
Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, &
cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106] <BR>
<LI>In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian
men, women and children. [SH107] <BR>
<LI>In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600
Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the
Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'."
[SH115] <BR>
<LI>To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki
people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a
century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The
Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were
down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about
<BR>30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The
Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely
6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of
the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on
the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678
had occurred. And the carnage was not over then. <BR>
<LI>All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it
was before the frontier age actually had begun. <BR>
<LI>A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were
destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by
smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by
violence, bad treatment and slavery. <BR>
<LI>In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even
today. </LI></UL>
<P><BR> <BR>More Glorious Events in U.S. History <BR>
<UL><BR>
<P><BR>
<LI>Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious
leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the
colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large
packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." [SH241] <BR>
<P><BR><BR></P>
<LI>Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a
former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be
wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and
children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500
killed.<BR>From an eye-witness account: "There were some thirty or forty
squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about
six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few
steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were
afterwards killed ..." [SH131]<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<LI>By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the
carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90
percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total
die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said,
somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the body'."
<BR>[SH244]</LI></UL><BR> <BR><FONT size=+1><B>20th Century Church
Atrocities</B></FONT> <BR>
<HR align=left width="40%" noShade>
<P><BR><BR> <BR><BR>
<UL><BR>
<LI><B>Catholic extermination camps</B><BR>Surprisingly few know that Nazi
extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe
at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous
extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante
Paveliç, a practicing Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There
were even concentration camps exclusively for children!<BR>In these camps -
the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar
-<BR>orthodox-Christian Serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were
murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns,
alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But
most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number
of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny
country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were
appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdienst der
SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The
pope knew about these events and did <BR>nothing to prevent them. [MV] <BR>
<P><BR><BR></P>
<LI><B>Catholic terror in Vietnam</B><BR>In 1954 Vietnamese freedom
fighters; the Viet Minh; - had finally defeated the French colonial
government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds
amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious
freedom to all (most non-Buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge
anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With
the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the
Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S.
forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent
democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to
power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made
president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]<BR>Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food,
technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist
individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which
were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be
supported was Roman Catholicism.<BR>The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even
more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a
presidential order which read: <BR>
<UL><BR>"Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and
common security may be confined by executive order, to a <B>concentration
camp.</B>"<BR></UL><BR>Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of Buddhist
protesters and monks were imprisoned in "detention camps." Out of protest
dozens of Buddhist teachers - male and female - and monks poured gasoline
over themselves and burned themselves. (<I>Note that Buddhists burned
themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others</I>). Meanwhile
some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant
and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death
camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at
least 24,000 were wounded - ; mostly in street riots ; - 80,000 people were
executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent
to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].<BR>To support this kind of
government in the next decade thousands of American GI's lost their life.
<BR>
<P><BR><BR></P>
<LI><B>Christianity kills the cat</B><BR>On July 1, 1976, Anneliese Michel,
a 23-year-old student of a teachers college in Germany, died: she starved
herself to death. For months she had been haunted by demonic visions and
apparitions, and for months two Catholic priests - with explicit approval of
the Catholic bishop of Würzburg - additionally pestered and tormented the
wretched girl with their exorcist rituals. After her death in Klingenberg
hospital - her body was littered with wounds - her parents, both of them
<BR>fanatical Catholics, were sentenced to six months for not having called
for medical help. None of the priests was punished: on the contrary, Miss
Michel's grave today is a place of pilgrimage and worship for a number of
similarly faithful Catholics (in the seventeenth century Würzburg was
notorious for it's extensive witch burnings).<BR>This case is only the tip
of an iceberg of such evil superstition and has become known only because of
its lethal outcome. [SP80] <BR><BR><BR>
<LI><B>Rwanda Massacres</B><BR>In 1994 in the small African country of
Rwanda in just a few months several hundred thousand civilians were
butchered, apparently a conflict of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups.<BR>For
quite some time I heard only rumors about Catholic clergy actively involved
in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were printed in
Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of
the church.<BR>Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany - a
station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated: <BR>
<UL><BR>"Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of
having actively participated in murders. Especially the conduct of a
certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's
capital Kigali for months. He was minister of the church of the Holy
Family and allegedly murdered Tutsis in the most brutal manner. He is
reported to have accompanied marauding Hutu militia with a gun in his
cowl. In fact there has been a bloody slaughter of Tutsis seeking shelter
in his parish. Even two years after the massacres many Catholics refuse to
set foot on the threshold of their church, because to them the
participation of a certain part of the clergy in the slaughter is well
established. There is almost no church in Rwanda that has not seen
refugees - women, children, old - being brutally butchered facing the
crucifix.<BR>According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis
and turned them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.<BR>In connection
with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are mentioned, both
of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the meantime to avoid
prosecution. According to survivors one of them called the <BR>Hutu
killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought shelter in
her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the churchyard and
were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of the gate. The
other one is also reported to have directly cooperated with the murderers
of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched
the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She
is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set
on <BR>fire and burn their victims alive..." [S2]<BR></UL><BR>More recently
the BBC aired: <BR>
<UL><BR>
<P><TT>Priests get death sentence for Rwandan genocide<BR>BBC NEWS April
19, 1998 <BR>
<P>A court in Rwanda has sentenced two Roman Catholic priests to death for
their role in the genocide of 1994, in which up to a million Tutsis and
moderate Hutus were killed. Pope John Paul said the priests must be made
to account for their actions. Different sections of the Rwandan church
have been widely accused of playing an active role in the genocide of
1994...</TT><BR></P></UL><BR><BR><BR>
<LI>As can be seen from these events, to Christianity the Dark Ages never
come to an end. <BR><BR></LI></UL>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 19:40:05 -0700<BR>From:
donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Of, By
&<BR>To: lfalen@turbonet.com; thansen@moscow.com; chasuk@gmail.com;
godshatter@yahoo.com; vision2020@moscow.com;
donaledwards@hotmail.com<BR><BR>
<DIV>Roger,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You write,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"Saying that an atheist does not believe that all people are created
equal in the eyes of god is not to say that they don't believe that all
people are equal."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR> Does nature create all people equal, Roger? Of course
not. People are only equal in the eyes of God. They are not equal in any
other way. There are great differences between people created in nature that
make some people better suited than others for this world. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Likewise, if you do not believe that the inherent rights listed in the
Constitution are created by God, then they were created only by men, flawed
men, and thus, the Constitution of the United States is only a piece of
paper. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There is no such thing as right or wrong, if there is no God. Because
only men can decide what is right and wrong, and men can change their
minds. Slavery is not wrong, unless men think it is wrong. Which means that
slavery was right, until men thought it to be wrong. Then and only then
would it be wrong. It could not always be right or wrong, because God does
not exist to an Atheist. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think it is important that leaders of men know what is right and
wrong, and understand it is something fixed, something factual, not
something that can move based on what they think is right and wrong at the
moment. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>An Atheist, does not view other people any more than being a more
highly evolved form of monkeys, chimps, and orangutans. People do not
have souls, they are simply just more intelligent creatures than the ones
they keep in zoos. They believe we are fools for believing in a God and
it is as stupid as believing in the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Best Regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Donovan<BR><BR><B><I>lfalen <lfalen@turbonet.com></I></B>
wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=EC_replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Donovan<BR>Saying
that an atheist does not believe that all people are created equal in the
eyes of god is not to say that they don't believe that all people are
equal.<BR>Roger<BR>-----Original message-----<BR>From: Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com<BR>Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:03:32
-0700<BR>To: Tom Hansen thansen@moscow.com, Chasuk chasuk@gmail.com,
lfalen lfalen@turbonet.com, godshatter@yahoo.com, vision2020@moscow.com,
donaledwards@hotmail.com<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Of, By
&<BR><BR>> TH,<BR>> <BR>> Are you asking me why I don't think
someone who doesn't believe all people are created equal in the eyes of
God is not fit to decide which men die and which men live in the battle
field?<BR>> <BR>> Or are you asking me why I don't think an Atheist
doesn't believe that all men are created equal in the eyes of God?<BR>>
<BR>> Best Regards,<BR>> <BR>> Donovan<BR>> <BR>> Tom
Hansen wrote:<BR>> Au contraire, Chas.<BR>> <BR>> I simply do not
believe that a person's religious preference (or lack <BR>> thereof)
should be applied as a measuring stick of that person's ability <BR>>
to lead.<BR>> <BR>> Question for you, D. Arnold: How do you confuse
an atheist with a person <BR>> that does not support the US
Constitution or equality? I have known <BR>> several admitted atheists
in the Army ranking from private first class (E-<BR>> 3) to master
sergeant (E-8) to lieutenant colonel (O-5).<BR>> <BR>> Although I
may not have agreed with some of the orders issued to me by <BR>>
atheist supervisors (these terms are not mutually exclusive), my <BR>>
disagreement was not on the basis of their lack or religious
conviction.<BR>> <BR>> I anxiously await your response to my
question.<BR>> <BR>> Tom "Protestant - or so it says on my dog tags"
Hansen<BR>> Moscow, Idaho<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> > Tom,<BR>>
> <BR>> > I am very concerned. Apparently, you believe that
a<BR>> > Constitution-scoffer and inequality proponent would be a
suitable<BR>> > leader of our troops. I know this because our
ever-discerning Donovan<BR>> > Arnold somehow divined it from this
thread. It has to be true!<BR>> > <BR>> > Dononvan
wrote:<BR>> > <BR>> > > So you think someone that doesn't
believe in the Constitution or that <BR>> all<BR>> > > men are
created equal should have command over the life and death of <BR>>
our<BR>> > > troops?<BR>> > <BR>> > Explain yourself,
Tom!!!<BR>> > <BR>> > Woefully,<BR>> > <BR>> >
Chas<BR>> > <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> "People who ridicule others
while hiding behind anonymous monikers in chat-<BR>> room forums are
neither brave nor clever." <BR>> <BR>> - Latah County Sheriff Wayne
Rausch (August 21,<BR>> 2007)<BR>> <BR>>
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