<DIV>Nick,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are right. I believe that God intentionally kills and tortures people for kicks and giggles. I must believe that because it says so in the Bible! (sarcasm)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I must either accept your false dilemma of;</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"You either believe God is an unjust God, OR You must believe that there is no God"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is their argument. And I am sorry, I don't buy it. I think it completely ignorant of even the basic understand of God. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is the equivocal to asking a person "When did you stop beating your wife?" and then attack them for either their yes or no answer. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nick does not believe that God tortures people.</DIV> <DIV>Chas does not believe that God tortures people</DIV> <DIV>Ralph does not believe that God tortures people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yet
they are trying to push this argument so that we fall into the trap of trying to defend every natural and unnatural event that occurs on Earth to every person that didn't deserve such a faith. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, I did step into that trap, and I should not have. But the reality is, I don't need to defend God. I think it is kind of sad that they engage in such activities as to try and convince people that God doesn't exist by presenting them with false dilemmas such as this. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I believe that God is a loving God. He is someone that is looking out for us. But he also gave us free will. And people abuse that free will, and it results in all sorts of problems for lots of innocent people who get hurt. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The argument that they are bringing forth is not a new one. It is one that tries to prove that there is no God. That if there was a God, in their
opinion, he would not allow murder, rape, volcanoes, people to get eaten by sharks, earthquakes, etc. Earth would be a Utopia, with out problems. It would in essence be Heaven. I think all things on Earth were made perfect, but it was in fact, man abusing his free will that results in things going wrong. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They try to argue against that by pointing out things where innocent people get hurt, as though their is shield around innocent people from the wrong doings of others. If there was, then there would be no free will to do right, because no wrong could be done if God constantly prevented wrongful actions. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I believe, as most Christians believe, that Heaven does not exist on Earth because people mess it up. We sin, we don't listen, we get greedy for power, wealth, and knowledge. And it is our downfall, every time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some people might not want to believe that. And that is fine for
now. They can put their entire hope for a better world into the hands of people. I on the other hand don't place my faith in the hands of other men. I place my faith in God. Without him, I would be lost every time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best Regards,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Donovan<BR><BR><B><I>nickgier@adelphia.net</I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Greetings:<BR><BR>I fully agree that Donovan has not been intellectually honest in this debate about God and evil. He is also stubborn and arrogant. He claims to take his authority from the Bible, and yet time and time again we find God directly responsible for evil in the world. <BR><BR>First, there is a very clear passage that indicates, as Luther reminded all Christians, that God creates both evil and good (Is. 45:7). <BR><BR>Second, at the end of the book of Job, God confesses that he is the one, by empowering Satan,
who caused Job to suffer, not because of his sin but, I guess, because of his pride. He was the most righteous man in the land, but Satan made a wager with God (a good God would have turned him down flatly) and God said "You're On!" and empowered Satan to kill all of Job's children and reduce him to utter misery. Oh, the joys of gambling and winning in the end! And are we to think that allowing Job's wife to birth a new family was really any consolation to her?<BR><BR>If Donovan's view was orthodox Christianity, we would never have had the phrase "Acts of God," to describe all the evil that is not caused by human will. But then the free-will defense also crumbles.<BR><BR>I like to use St. Augustine as proof of the failure of the free-will defense for the evil that human do. In the City of God Augustine states that humans sin because they have deficient wills, and then he essentially admits that those wills are deficient because God made them so. <BR><BR>As Luther reminds
us time and time again, if we believe that God is omnipotent, then all things flow directly from his will not any other will. Although most Lutherans cringe when they read this, here is Luther's unassailable logic: “Since God moves and does all, we must take it that he moves and acts even in Satan and the godless; . . . evil things are done with God himself setting them in motion.”<BR><BR>I am a theist only because I converted to process theology when I enrolled for graduate school in Claremont in 1967. (I was just in Claremont to celebrate the birthday of the world's greatest process theologian, John B. Cobb, Jr.) Process theology solves, to my satisfaction, both the problems of free-will and evil. See my essay at www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/process.htm.<BR><BR>Those wishing for a lighter read might enjoy a column I did on Katrina and the Wrath of God. You can find it at my government sponsored vanity website: www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/katrina.htm.<BR><BR>By the way,
Donovan makes a claim that most of the world religions believe in Original Sin, which of course is false. Not even the Jews, the "owners" of the story of Adam and Eve, believe it, neither do Muslims, Hindus, Confucians, Shintoists, or Buddhists. It is significant that the "Fall" of Adam and Eve is never mentioned again in the Hebrew Bible. The Doctrine of Original Sin was the invention of New Testament writers and made into a dogma by the Church.<BR><BR>Nick Gier<BR><BR>=======================================================<BR>List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <BR>http://www.fsr.net <BR>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>=======================================================</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p> 
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