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<div>Ralph et. al.</div>
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<div>Thanks for your Biblical (note the capitalization; I recall you taking me to task for once writing "bible" on Vision2020) scholarship. </div>
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<div>Perhaps a few who believe the ultimate purpose of life is not to live in peace on Earth, with respect for all living beings, sustainably, but rather to secure a place in "heaven," apart from the natural support systems of our biosphere on Earth, will consider your comments. However, there are many powerful reasons so many believe fervently in an eternal afterlife transcending the death of the body, not subject to the vicissitudes of natural variables on our little planet. Death is conquered, and loved ones gone will be seen again. Injustice will be eventually righted. And a person's existence is guaranteed a place in the "eternal." It is amazing to observe the power these ideas have over human behavior. How many have "willingly" sacrificed their life in the firm belief in an eternal and righteous afterlife?</div>
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<div>Who among those who fervently believe in an afterlife for the personal soul are open to the validity of the idea of a final personal biological death?</div>
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<div>Ted Moffett</div>
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<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 2/23/08, <b class="gmail_sendername">Ralph Nielsen</b> <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nielsen@uidaho.edu" target="_blank">nielsen@uidaho.edu</a>> wrote:</span> </div>
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">You're right, Ted. But far too many people still look at the world<br>thru rose-colored theological glasses. They don't worry about future<br>
generations because by that time they will be in an imaginary future<br>existence where there is no pain or suffering. They think the Bible<br>teaches them this. But they don't know (and usually don't want to<br>know) that the Bible itself teaches them otherwise.<br>
<br>In the traditional Hebrew/Old Testament religion there is no life<br>after death (except a shadowy subexistence down in Sheol). God<br>himself says we will not live forever like him (Genesis 3:22-24). Why<br>do we suffer? Because we disobey God. This means that God will give<br>
us everything we deserve while we are alive on the earth. This was<br>somewhat modified by the idea that if God doesn't get you while you<br>are alive, he will take it out on your children and grandchildren<br>unto the 3rd and 4th generation (Exodus 20:5).<br>
<br>But some wise Hebrews rejected this unfair and often untrue scheme of<br>things. They could see that the good are often punished and the<br>wicked rewarded. But since there is no afterlife in which to be<br>rewarded or punished, we just have to admit that we don't know what<br>
God's ways are. So the best we can do is to eat, drink and enjoy our<br>brief life.<br><br>The great fictional book of Job explores this problem in greater<br>depth. God and his servant Satan make a bet about a good and<br>
righteous man down on earth called Job. No matter how much suffering<br>Satan, at the orders of God, inflicts on Job, Job knows that he does<br>not deserve what he is getting. (Job has no idea that he is the<br>object of a divine betting game.) Here again, the whole point of the<br>
drama is based on the fact that there is no life after death. Job's<br>cry, "I know that my Redeemer lives" is usually misinterpreted by<br>Christian apologists. The Hebrew should more correctly be translated<br>
"Vindicator." It is not about Jesus Christ several centuries ahead.<br>Job knows that his "comforters" are wrong and he is right.<br><br>Eventually God himself appears on the scene (ch. 38). But he doesn't<br>
answer Job's question. All he does is bluster and brag about how<br>great and powerful he is and what a little twerp Job is. Of course,<br>we know that the reason why God doesn't give Job an answer is because<br>there is no answer. What else can the author of the drama say?<br>
<br>Ralph<br><br><br><br>On Feb 22, 2008, at 11:24 PM, Ted Moffett wrote:<br><br>> If God is an omnipotent, all knowing and all good being, God does<br>> not have a problem. Only limited beings that lack the capability<br>
> to comprehend such infinite capacities have a "problem." Having<br>> said that, the problem of evil, or suffering, in a universe created<br>> by "God," as it has been parsed in the history of theology and<br>
> philosophy, is a subject that it is difficult to say anything new<br>> about.<br>><br>> There are far more opportunities to say something new about<br>> environmental sustainability, alternative energy, the problem of<br>
> CO2/fossil fuel induced climate change, and the connections to<br>> these problems with the USA's out of control consumer culture, now<br>> to hit the Palouse with an inspiration to attain even higher levels<br>
> of wanton consumption, with the Hawkins Mall.<br>><br>> If someone has something new to say about the problem of suffering,<br>> or the problem of evil, given certain assumptions about a creator<br>> "God," theologically speaking, please, enlighten us.<br>
><br>> Otherwise, perhaps we should focus on the critical problems of how<br>> humanity is to make peace with Nature, before we slide off the<br>> cliff of species extinction, ecosystem collapse, and resource<br>
> depletion, as the human population keeps expanding, as we worship<br>> at the alter of materialistic consumption as the primary goal of<br>> the human race, as anthropogenic climate change portends to remake<br>
> our planet into a world unrecognizable to the current generation.<br>><br>> The Hawkins Mall is a local focal point for these critical problems<br>> the human race is facing. And to deny this is to deny the reality<br>
> of the impacts materialistic consumerism is having on the very<br>> fabric of life on our planet.<br>><br>> Hey, what do I know? I just read the latest science on<br>> environmental consequences of human activity and industry, and<br>
> connect the dots to what we are doing here to the impacts<br>> globally. We are all a "wholly owned subsidiary" of the Earth as a<br>> living system.<br>><br>> I'll be long gone when we have reaped what we sow... In the<br>
> meantime, yes, I am a beneficiary of the capitalist consumer<br>> culture, so to some extent, I am criticizing the hand that feeds me...<br>><br>> Ted Moffett<br>><br>> On 2/20/08, Ralph Nielsen <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nielsen@uidaho.edu" target="_blank">nielsen@uidaho.edu</a>> wrote: RALPH NIELSEN<br>
><br>> Here goes the old librarian again. Yesterday on NPR Fresh Air there<br>> was an interview with Bart Ehrman about his latest book "God's<br>> Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question."<br>
><br>> It deals with the age-old problem of theodicy: why is there<br>> suffering in the world?<br>><br>> The web site is<br>><br>> <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=19096131" target="_blank">www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=19096131</a>><br>
><br>> Or go to <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.npr.org/" target="_blank">www.NPR.org</a>>, then to the "Top emailed stories," and<br>> click on<br>> Bart Ehrman. You can download the interview or listen to it there.<br>
><br>> We religious skeptics ought to know about this problem ourselves. We<br>> can't leave it to God, can we?<br>><br>> I found myself almost completely agreeing with him. I certainly agree<br>> with him that Ecclesiastes is one of the best books in the Bible.<br>
><br>> Good listening and good reading.<br>><br><br></blockquote></div><br>