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Not sure just what you mean by "I believe it is mostly the guilt of their actions that causes PTSD." Due to the following of orders or due to the acts themselves? Either way, what do you expect them to do - say "No" to a commanding officer? Sure, there are things vets/soldiers do that they may not agree with, but training tells them to do it anyway. You have any suggestions as to how else they should act? Ever hear of an Article 15 or CM due to a solider not following orders?<br><br>During the major part of Vietnam, men had no choice but to be there - they were drafted. Their only other choice was to become a fugitive and run for the rest of their lives...you recommending that people take that on for the rest of their lives?<br><br>And this statement has me a might confused as it seems contradictory, at best: "Proving that he is human in my book, humans just don't do that sort of thing to each other." If it isn't humans shooting each other, who is it? Or was the statement one of "<span style="font-style: italic;">Why </span>are we doing this to each other?" which is a question asked since Cain did Able.<br><br>Not sure where you get your information, but if I may ask - you ever serve in any of the Armed Forces? or do you have a degree in Psychology? 'Cuse, if not I think you should re-think and/or reprhase your opinions. These kinds of statements are what a lot of us had to deal with when we got back and what a lot of the new soldier of today is having to listen to now. We should be supporting them, not putting them down because they chose to serve their country.<br><br><br>J :]<br><br><br>> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 18:00:22 -0800<br>> From: tiedye@turbonet.com<br>> To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Support for veterans<br>> <br>> You miss my point Tom. If they didn't believe the lies, then they <br>> wouldn't follow the un-lawful orders. If they didn't follow the <br>> un-lawful orders, they wouldn't have to endure the experiences which <br>> drive them insane.<br>> <br>> I believe it is mostly the guilt of their actions that causes PTSD. You <br>> friend's story is a good case in point: He thought he was doing the <br>> right thing, he was following the orders of his "superiors", he was <br>> doing the "patriotic" thing. But when he saw the results of his actions <br>> it tore him up inside. (Proving that he is human in my book, humans <br>> just don't do that sort of thing to each other.) Wouldn't it have been <br>> better if he had simply refused to lob those shells? Or even be there <br>> in the first place?<br>> <br>> Have you ever seen the movie: Sir, No Sir!? It is an awesome <br>> documentary that details how it was the solders themselves who stopped <br>> Vietnam, not the protests, not the politics, but it was the solders <br>> simply refusing their (un-lawful) orders that stopped it.<br>> The parallels to todays' so-called-war are astounding, it's also a great <br>> flashback to the 60's. There's a trailer on youtube.<br>> <br>> The other day someone on KRFP was talking about how the army is hiding <br>> its very high "desertion" rate. I just hope is doesn't come to the <br>> fraging that happened in Nam., as that could cause serious PTSD too. <br>> And, oh yeah, kill a few officers who only think that they are doing the <br>> right thing by following orders.<br>> <br>> Dave<br>> <br>> <br>> Tom Hansen wrote:<br>> > I have several friends diagnosed with various levels of PTSD, Dave.<br>> > <br>> > PTSD is not brought on by the lies that send troops into combat. It <br>> > is brought on by the experiences these troops are forced to endure in <br>> > combat.<br>> > <br>> > Life at home here in the states consists of a wide range of parameters <br>> > that define "acceptable behavior" based upon family values and public <br>> > mores. Ninety-nine percent of the time life goes on day-by-day where <br>> > every action can be logically and ethically explained. You take a 18- <br>> > or 19- 20-something year old person out of that warm, fuzzy <br>> > environment, give him/her a gun and, in a period of four months (even <br>> > shorter now) drop him/her into an environment where those family <br>> > values and public mores do not exist, and expose him/her to a most <br>> > inhumane daily blood-bath routine, and expect that soldier to make <br>> > sense of it all . . . and you will understand what brings on PTSD.<br>> > <br>> > For instance . . . I have a friend who was in the Marines during <br>> > Vietnam. I met him while attending North Idaho College. He was, what <br>> > we in the Army call a "cannon cocker". He loaded artillery shells <br>> > into artillery pieces (cannons, mortars, etc.). For almost a year his <br>> > unit shelled villages in his region. To make things worse, his unit <br>> > was firing white phosphorus shells (considered illegal by the Geneva <br>> > Convention). One of the "benefits" of applying indirect fire <br>> > (cannons, mortars, etc.) is that you are impersonal to the damage <br>> > caused by the very cannons you fire. Well, to make a long story <br>> > short, he (my friend) and his squad were called on to recon a village <br>> > they had just shelled, to apprehend any survivors as potential <br>> > prisoners for interrogation. What he witnessed, as his squad reconned <br>> > the village that day (and for several subsequent patrols over the next <br>> > few weeks) turned a very outgoing, friendly, open-hearted person into <br>> > somebody difficult to define or describe. He had been put on <br>> > medication since his discharge in 1969. He's been married twice, <br>> > divorced twice, and attempted suicide once. He is currently a patient <br>> > at American Lakes Veteran Hospital, a hospital whose budget is only a <br>> > few dollars more than mine.<br>> > <br>> > So, you see, Dave. It isn't as much a matter of keeping the troops <br>> > informed as to why they are going into combat as much as it is <br>> > providing therapy and care to return them back to that neighborhood <br>> > they left behind.<br>> > <br>> > Pro patria,<br>> > <br>> > Tom Hansen<br>> > Moscow, Idaho<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> ><br>> > > Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:28:29 -0800<br>> > > From: tiedye@turbonet.com<br>> > > To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Support for veterans<br>> > ><br>> > > "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."<br>> > ><br>> > > To prevent our troops from getting PTSD we have to train our kids <br>> > not to<br>> > > believe the lies and then go overseas and kill people, it drives you <br>> > insane!<br>> > ><br>> > > Did you know that more Vietnam vets have committed suicide then died in<br>> > > the war?<br>> > ><br>> > > My kids have clear instructions should they institute the draft while<br>> > > they are of age: run north, run south, run underground, or do the time,<br>> > > but don't kill people.<br>> > ><br>> > > And remember that following an un-lawful order is an un-lawful act.<br>> > ><br>> > > Military recruiters are committing an un-lawful act by encouraging our<br>> > > kids to follow the un-lawful orders to ship out and fight an illegal<br>> > > war. We should stop these people from committing such war crimes.<br>> > ><br>> > > Dave<br>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> ><br>> > =======================================================<br>> > List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> > http://www.fsr.net <br>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > =======================================================<br>> <br>> <br>> -- <br>> Windows, OSX, or Linux is the same choice as:<br>> McDonalds, Burger King, or a (real) Co-Op.<br>> <br>> =======================================================<br>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> http://www.fsr.net <br>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> =======================================================<br><br /><hr />Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your HotmailŪ-get your "fix". <a href='http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx' target='_new'>Check it out.</a></body>
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