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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>And here is my small addition to this large discussion of
God versus science....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>As I understand it, black holes out in space are places
where the laws of physics no longer apply. Are those the portals between
the rationally-understood universe and the realm of spirit?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>BL</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=kjajmix1@msn.com href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com">keely emerinemix</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=godshatter@yahoo.com
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul Rumelhart</A> ; <A
title=jampot@roadrunner.com href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g.
crabtree</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 22, 2007 10:06
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] Creation vs.
science (was NSA's accrediting agency)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Geneva,Arial,Sans-serif">I hesitate
to jump in on this because I'm back in the Seattle area with family and I
won't be able to get to a computer as often as I'd like, but I would suggest a
way to shed some light on any purported science vs. God argument. First,
though, I want to assert two things: One, I believe God created the
world and everything in it. Beyond that, because of my trust in the beauty and
order of the world around us, I believe that true science will never
contradict that assertion. Believers should embrace science, and no
actual truth will ever contradict the Truth we know in God. <BR><BR>The
streetfight appears to be between those who assert the full truth of the
Bible, as read literally, and those who argue that all good science points to
a conclusion that appears different from what the Bible appears to say. I
would offer a third option: Perhaps the Bible isn't wrong, perhaps
science isn't wrong. Maybe I'm wrong in my understanding of what each
says. <BR><BR>I believe the message of the Bible is true in all it sets
forth, when understood in the context of in the intent or formulation of a
specific passage -- historical record, apocalyptic symbolism, poetry, law,
personal letters of exhortation, etc. Another way to put it is this --
Religion tells me Who, Science tells me How. Could it be that the
creation accounts in Genesis were written not as scientific treatises, as
science seems to indicate, and instead symbolic passages used to illustrate
the truth -- <SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">God created
</SPAN>-- to non-literate peoples, both water-dependent fishermen and
land-dependent shepherds? Maybe science is able only to "see through a
mirror darkly," And it can only do what finite persons can do -- offer
reasonable explanations for the phenomena of life and order and beauty around
us. It's a sacred calling to "do science," to study what the Creator
left us, and to always seek greater understanding. If it's true, it will
reveal something about God. But scientists, believing and unbelieving,
must work with evidence and experimentation as they present themselves; they
can't start from a theological belief and bend observable truth to try to
complement it. That weakens both theology and science. Likewise,
believers must be content to live in a world of seeming paradox, and the
tension between revealed spiritual Truth and observable material truth is
nothing to be feared. The "missing link" (oops!) is the reality that
both can be true and that, in the Providence of God, it will become
clear. In the meantime, theologians study and scientists study, and
their purported defenders make a mess out of everything. It does God no
honor to deaden his word by reading into Scripture what Scripture doesn't
intend to communicate, and it does science no favor to scramble like lab mice
to come up with evidence tto try to disprove the existence of God.
<BR><BR>I am neither a scientist nor a theologian, and I'm content to
recognize the tension between the two without panicking that the wonders of
the universe have not been revealed to me. God is still God, even
(especially) in my non-understanding, and His science is still His truth --
even in my non-understanding, and even when it seems to shake that which is
never, in my soul.
unshakeable.<BR><BR>Keely<BR><BR><BR></SPAN><BR><BR><BR><BR>> Date: Fri, 21
Dec 2007 22:00:43 -0800<BR>> From: godshatter@yahoo.com<BR>> To:
jampot@roadrunner.com<BR>> CC: vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] NSA's accrediting agency is not recognized in Texas<BR>>
<BR>> Gary,<BR>> <BR>> While it's true that scientists can be
unscrupulous, fame-hungry, and/or <BR>> greedy bastards and fudge results
upon occasion, the beauty of the <BR>> scientific method still shines
through. Experiments have to be <BR>> repeatable for just this reason.
Anyone with the right training and the <BR>> right equipment can repeat
these experiments, and compare the results to <BR>> those published by
those unethical scientists.<BR>> <BR>> As for the topic of religion vs.
science, I would have to say that the <BR>> two concepts don't have to be
incompatible. Scientists observe the <BR>> world around us, which I imagine
any God would want us to do. They use <BR>> their God-given brains to look
for patterns and apply logical principles <BR>> in an attempt to understand
how things work. They are, in effect, <BR>> uncovering even more of the
beauty of the world around us. The theory <BR>> of relativity, for example,
is beautiful and elegant. It brings praise <BR>> to the Creator every time
we come a little bit closer to understanding <BR>> just how majestic this
universe is.<BR>> <BR>> Science is Man's best guess at how Creation
works, and because it's <BR>> _Man's_ best guess, it's always going to be
flawed. But science is a <BR>> self-correcting mechanism, and will come
closer and closer to <BR>> approximating how the universe that God (or
gods) gave us actually works <BR>> over time. If that conflicts with any
book that states that it is the <BR>> Truth, then the book's claim should
be questioned. Perhaps the <BR>> discrepancies will work themselves out as
we learn more, or perhaps the <BR>> book wasn't claiming to be a scientific
treatise in the first place. <BR>> Science itself will self-correct over
time.<BR>> <BR>> Paul<BR>> <BR>> g. crabtree wrote:<BR>> >
"As if good scientists made up their own data in the laboratory!"<BR>>
><BR>> > Please see:<BR>> ><BR>> >
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8515<BR>> ><BR>> >
www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2005/07/68153<BR>> ><BR>> >
www.americanthinker.com/2006/08/fake_but_accurate_science.html<BR>>
><BR>> > http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=17978<BR>>
><BR>> >
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19814-2005Feb12.html<BR>>
><BR>> >
http://sciencepoliticsclimatechange.blogspot.com/2006/08/role-of-consensus-in-science.html<BR>>
><BR>> >
http://chronicle.com/subscribe/login?url=http%3A%2F%2Fchronicle.com%2Fdaily%2F2007%2F01%2F2007011002n.htm<BR>>
><BR>> >
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45611-2005Mar17.html<BR>>
><BR>> >
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/10/28/mit_professor_is_fired_over_fabricated_data/<BR>>
><BR>> >
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2005/Apr-02-Sat-2005/news/26204008.html<BR>>
><BR>> > Why the very notion that data might be faked by Scientists
must be <BR>> > preposterous.<BR>> ><BR>> > g<BR>>
><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>>
><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>>
><BR>> > ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> > From:
<nickgier@adelphia.net><BR>> > To:
<vision2020@moscow.com><BR>> > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007
3:22 PM<BR>> > Subject: [Vision2020] NSA's accrediting agency is not
recognized in Texas<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > <BR>> >>
Greetings:<BR>> >><BR>> >> Ralph Nielsen sent me this and he
may want to post it here, but if he does <BR>> >> not, here is some
interesting news.<BR>> >><BR>> >> First, the Transnational
Association for Christian Colleges and Schools <BR>> >> (TRACS), New
St. Andrews College's accrediting agency, was founded by <BR>> >>
creationist Henry Morris; and second, TRACS is not recognized by Texas'
<BR>> >> higher education authorities. It is good to see that Texas
has higher <BR>> >> academic standards than Idaho.<BR>>
>><BR>> >> Here is my favorite quotation from Henry Morris: "It
is better to believe <BR>> >> in the revealed World of God than any
science or philosophy devised by <BR>> >> man." As if good scientists
made up their own data in the laboratory!<BR>> >><BR>> >>
ICR SEEKS TO GRANT DEGREES IN TEXAS<BR>> >><BR>> >> Morris
explained, "The possibility of moving to Dallas surfaced when my <BR>>
>> brother, Dr. Henry Morris III, discerned that a central location
would be <BR>> >> beneficial for ICR, with several possibilities for
student services at <BR>> >> nearby affiliated colleges. The many
good<BR>> >> churches and large numbers of ICR supporters living in
North Texas made it <BR>> >> a<BR>> >> natural fit for the
ministry. When my father [Henry Morris] was still <BR>> >> alive
he<BR>> >> approved the move to Dallas, especially as a way to
strengthen the <BR>> >> graduate school. In 2006, ICR opened a
distance education effort in <BR>> >> Dallas, as well as the hub of
ICR's internet ministries. ... As <BR>> >> additional operational
functions were assigned to the new Dallas office, <BR>> >> the Board
concluded that it was in ICR's best interests to move the entire <BR>>
>> ministry."<BR>> >><BR>> >> The ICR's graduate
school was previously accredited by the Transnational<BR>> >>
Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS), a group founded by
<BR>> >> Henry Morris; Henry Morris III presently serves on its
commission. Texas <BR>> >> does not recognize accreditation by TRACS,
forcing the ICR to seek <BR>> >> temporary state certification while
it applies for accreditation from the <BR>> >> Southern Association
of Colleges and Schools (SACS). As a first step <BR>> >> toward
certification, a committee of Texas educators visited the ICR's <BR>>
>> facilities in Dallas to evaluate whether the ICR meets the legal
<BR>> >> requirements for state certification. The report described
the<BR>> >> educational program as "plausible," adding, "The proposed
degree would be<BR>> >> generally comparable to an initial master's
degree in science education <BR>> >> from<BR>> >> one of the
smaller, regional universities in the state."<BR>> >><BR>>
>> NCSE's Eugenie C. Scott disagreed, telling the Dallas Morning
News,<BR>> >> "It sounds like the committee may have just taken at
face value what<BR>> >> the ICR claims ... There's a huge gulf
between what the ICR is doing and <BR>> >> what<BR>> >>
they're doing at legitimate institutions like ... [the University<BR>>
>> of Texas] or Baylor." (The committee members were a librarian, an
<BR>> >> educational<BR>> >> administrator, and a
mathematician; none was professionally trained in<BR>> >> biology,
geology, or physics.) Inside Higher Ed reported (December<BR>> >> 17,
2007), "Some science groups are aghast by the idea that Texas would<BR>>
>> authorize master's degrees in science education that are based on
complete<BR>> >> opposition to evolution and literal acceptance of
the Bible. And these<BR>> >> groups are particularly concerned
because the students in these programs<BR>> >> would be people who
are or want to be school teachers."<BR>> >><BR>> >> Although
Patricia Nason, chair of the ICR's science education<BR>> >>
department, told the Dallas Morning News, "Our students are given both
<BR>> >> sides.<BR>> >> They need to know both sides, and
they can draw their own conclusion,"<BR>> >> the ICR's statement of
faith includes the tenet, "All things in the <BR>> >>
universe<BR>> >> were created and made by God in the six literal days
of the creation week<BR>> >> described in Genesis 1:1-2:3, and
confirmed in Exodus 20:8-11. The <BR>> >> creation record is factual,
historical and perspicuous; thus all theories <BR>> >> of origins or
development which involve evolution in any form are false." <BR>> >>
Similarly, applicants to the ICR's graduate school are explicitly told
<BR>> >> that their answers to the essay questions on the application
help to <BR>> >> determine "your dedication to the Lord, the Word,
and teaching<BR>> >> creation science."<BR>> >><BR>>
>> . . .<BR>> >><BR>> >> Nick Gier<BR>>
>><BR>> >><BR>> >>
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