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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Well, you're entailed to your opinion, of course. However,
when "KRFP Dave" attempts to refute the information I put up by first asserting
that it must be propaganda because its source was a .gov and follows it
by claiming that the reporter can have no credibility because of his
association with conservatives, I AM in fact calling him on it. I am happy
to entertain the notion that the article itself may or may not have been
factual, (although the scientists cited in the story did, in fact, make the
statements reported as verified by several other news sites) or that the
gentlemen he was reporting on may have been in error but, to dismiss it out of
hand based on nothing more than its source or the reporters past (or current)
associations is pre-digested straw. My point was that there are scientists on
both sides with credentials and work published in peer reviewed publications.
You may not like it, you may want to carry on with the illogical scatological
commentary, but it is what it is.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>P.S. Carl's right, soccer blows. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=sunilramalingam@hotmail.com
href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">Sunil Ramalingam</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=jampot@roadrunner.com
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g. crabtree</A> ; <A
title=davesway@hotmail.com href="mailto:davesway@hotmail.com">david sarff</A>
; <A title=vision2020@moscow.com href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision
2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 15, 2007 10:30
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] Attendees At UN
Climate Conference Pay For Conference Associated CO2 Emissions</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Gary,<BR> <BR>You didn't 'call Dave' on
anything.<BR> <BR>You made up a bunch of crap and claimed it was your
opponents' position.<BR> <BR>That's not a point of view, it's
crap.<BR> <BR>I don't think anyone's telling you to 'bow' to someone
else's point of view. I'm certainly not doing it. I'm just
pointing out that you haven't created a straw man, you've made a crap
man. I suppose it was straw before the bull ate it. It ain't
now.<BR> <BR>Sunil<BR> <BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR>
From: <A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</A><BR>To: <A
href="mailto:davesway@hotmail.com">davesway@hotmail.com</A>; <A
href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</A>;
vision2020@moscow.com<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Attendees At UN Climate
Conference Pay For Conference Associated CO2 Emissions<BR>Date: Thu, 13 Dec
2007 13:03:05 -0800<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I assume that this is an example of the new
noxious stench policy you have recently
instituted? How wonderful that you have found something to
occupy your time. Since it looks like it's going to consist
of playing "me too" and "yah, what he said" with Sunil and all the
other fine folks on the V who take exception to what I post you shouldn't
have to worry about running out of things to do. Now to attempt to address
your individual concerns:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Aaron Ament: I have never railed against
your homie for being uncivil, per se. He is free to be what ever
kind of guy he chooses and I could not care less. Where I had (I LOVE
being able to use that particular tense) a problem was when he decided that
after demonstrating his contempt for a significant segment of the community,
he imagined that he would be suitable to represent them and make
decisions on their behalf. Not good and I said so. Now that Moscow
has had a taste of that particular bad apple and have elected
to spit it out, I'm totally comfortable with his returning to being an
ordinary, run of the mill fellow expressing a point of view I
disagree with and disregard.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Next, you seem to take issue with my calling KRFP Dave
on his tactic of dismissing the news story because he wasn't all that
fond of the source having at one time been in the presence of a
conservative and my mild disparagement of MSNBC. Why, I don't know. When you
can identify for me the counterparts at that network to FOX's Allen Colmes,
Greta Van Susteren. Geraldo Rivera, Martin Frost, Mara Liason, Juan
Williams, Bob Beckel, Susan Estrich, etc. I might grant that you have some
sort of a point. Till then, not so much. I will happily admit that I think
FOX has a right wing bias but MSNBC doesn't even pretend to
objectivity. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>The allowance that I may express my dissent
against a supposed majority opinion is very generous of you and not a little
amusing. The appeal to bow to the consensus of the "greater volume" is
laughable, particularly coming from you. The insistence that I comply
with your particular version of proper discourse is flat out hilarious. If
you don't like what I post please feel free to let me know but, don't be
upset when I pointedly ignore your commands to modify my presentation to
conform to your notion of propriety.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=davesway@hotmail.com href="mailto:davesway@hotmail.com">david
sarff</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=sunilramalingam@hotmail.com
href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">Sunil Ramalingam</A> ; <A
title=vision2020@moscow.com href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision
2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 12, 2007
9:49 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Attendees
At UNClimate Conference Pay ForConference Associated CO2 Emissions</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You know it Sunil, here we have this
indefensible junk that any "reasonable person" wouldn't shove into
anyone's mouth. Gary has railed against
others( Aaron Ament for one) for incivility and then turns
around and expulses incivility, in volume. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>"Next we
have the ever popular "anyone who has ever been, worked for, or been
<BR>> in the presence of a conservative is, by definition, a lying rat
bastard." <BR>> We all know that only liberals (and even then, only
those who work for <BR>> MSNBC) can be trusted to bring us the
unvarnished truth."</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><FONT
face=Arial size=2>It would be just as much trash if the words conservative
and liberal traded places, along with the removal of MSNBC
and the addition of Fox in the
paragraph.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><FONT
face=Arial size=2>Express your descent imaginatively against the greater
volume of science, supported by people who happen to be both liberals
and conservatives, fine, yet, please knock off the bully style,
Gary. It's foolish.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><FONT
face=Arial size=2>Dave</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR>></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3></FONT></FONT> </DIV><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR>
From: sunilramalingam@hotmail.com<BR>To: vision2020@moscow.com<BR>Date:
Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:23:26 -0800<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Attendees
At UN Climate Conference Pay ForConference Associated CO2
Emissions<BR><BR>
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Gary,<BR><BR>You're the only one who makes such sweeping statements,
though you're generous enough to attribute them to others, even if they
don't want them. I certainly don't take the positions you want to
ascribe to liberals; no thanks, you can have them back.<BR><BR>I will
say that I am suspicious of 'scientific' claims embraced by this
administration, because of their track record of having political
appointees tell scientists what to say. But that's not liberal
bias; that's simply how most people operate: If someone lies to
you, you're careful not to take what they say next at face value.
I'm sure you do this regularly. I do it with the Clintons, I
absolutely do it with this administration.<BR><BR>Sunil<BR><BR>>
From: jampot@roadrunner.com<BR>> To: krfp@radiofreemoscow.org;
vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 07:15:44
-0800<BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Attendees At UN Climate
Conference Pay ForConference Associated CO2 Emissions<BR>> <BR>>
Interesting response. So everything that comes from a site with a .gov
<BR>> address is propaganda? The folks at weather.gov, grants. gov,
health.gov, <BR>> sba.gov, fbi.gov, irs.gov, idaho.gov, etc. are
going to be surprised and <BR>> disappointed to hear that. Quite
frankly I would be a lot more suspicious of <BR>> information that
came from a .org address. You have just GOT to know that <BR>> there
will be an agenda associated with anything they have to tell
you.<BR>> <BR>> Next we have the ever popular "anyone who has ever
been, worked for, or been <BR>> in the presence of a conservative is,
by definition, a lying rat bastard." <BR>> We all know that only
liberals (and even then, only those who work for <BR>> MSNBC) can be
trusted to bring us the unvarnished truth.<BR>> <BR>> Moving on,
the my scientist is better then your scientist argument is <BR>>
brought forward. I'm sorry but here is nothing that leads me to believe
that <BR>> Schmidt, Harrison, and Monbiot (a journalist, not a
scientist) have more <BR>> access to the truth than Monckton, Evans,
Gray, McShane, and Alexander. I <BR>> don't see where a persons
opinion with regard to those with AIDS or whether <BR>> you
personally think someone's a nice guy has anything to do with the
<BR>> accuracy of their claims.<BR>> <BR>> You are absolutely
correct in one area however. Nothing you have posted has <BR>>
changed my mind and I will continue to enjoy driving my car. Are you
<BR>> implying that YOU will be forsaking all carbon generating forms
of travel or <BR>> just that you will continue to do it with a big
old mopey face? I was <BR>> unaware that doing the exact same things
that us nasty old conservatives do <BR>> but being unhappy about it
was better for the environment. I'll try to frown <BR>> more when I
drive.<BR>> <BR>> g<BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message -----
<BR>> From: "KRFP" <krfp@radiofreemoscow.org><BR>> To:
"Vision 2020" <vision2020@moscow.com><BR>> Sent: Tuesday,
December 11, 2007 5:52 PM<BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Attendees At
UN Climate Conference Pay <BR>> ForConference Associated CO2
Emissions<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> > This is not a "news item",
Gary. This is a propaganda item!<BR>> ><BR>> > First off
it's a .gov address, that should give you the first clue. If<BR>>
> you want to know more, here are the first few paragraphs from
your<BR>> > "reporter's" SourceWatch entry:<BR>> ><BR>>
>> Marc Morano is communications director for the U.S. Senate
Committee<BR>> >> on Environment and Public Works. Morano
commenced work with the<BR>> >> committee under Senator James
Inhofe, who was majority chairman of the<BR>> >> committee
until January 2007. In December 2006 Morano launched a blog<BR>>
>> on the committee's website that largely promotes the views of
climate<BR>> >> change sceptics.<BR>> >><BR>>
>> Morano is a former journalist with Cybercast News Service
(owned by<BR>> >> the conservative Media Research Center). CNS
and Morano were the first<BR>> >> source in May 2004 of the
Swift Boat Veterans for Truth claims against<BR>> >> John Kerry
in the 2004 presidential election [1] and in January 2006<BR>>
>> of similar smears against Vietnam war veteran John
Murtha.<BR>> >><BR>> >> Morano was "previously known
as Rush Limbaugh's 'Man in Washington,'<BR>> >> as reporter and
producer for the Rush Limbaugh Television Show, as<BR>> >> well
as a former correspondent and producer for American
Investigator,<BR>> >> the nationally syndicated TV
newsmagazine."<BR>> ><BR>> >
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Marc_Morano#Profiles<BR>>
><BR>> > The Wiki article on Lord Christopher Monckton, who is
quoted, makes for<BR>> > some good reading as well. Here's a
snippet:<BR>> ><BR>> >> Gavin Schmidt has criticised
Monckton's analysis of climate<BR>> >> sensitivity as
"sleight-of-hand to fool the unwary" [1]. Dr. Stephan<BR>> >>
Harrison criticises Moncktons' articles as "full of errors, misuse
of<BR>> >> data and cherry-picked examples" [2]. The British
writer and<BR>> >> environmentalist George Monbiot has
criticized Monckton's arguments as<BR>> >> "cherry-picking,
downright misrepresentation and pseudo-scientific<BR>> >>
gibberish."[19] In a response published in The Guardian, Monckton
has<BR>> >> argued that he "got the science right" and that
Monbiot got "too many<BR>> >> facts wrong" and had shown
"ignorance of the elementary physics".<BR>> >
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Monckton,_3rd_Viscount_Monckton_of_Brenchley<BR>>
><BR>> > Nice peer review!<BR>> ><BR>> > It also
seems he's been lobbying the Senate on behalf of ExxonMobil.<BR>>
> He also thinks all people with AIDS should be locked up and we
should<BR>> > have mandatory monthly tests. Nice guy.<BR>>
><BR>> ><BR>> > I like this sentence from the Australian:
" We have the missing [human]<BR>> > signature [in the
atmosphere], we have the IPCC models being wrong and<BR>> > we
have the lack of a temperature going up the last 5 years,".
Except<BR>> > that 2006 was the hottest year on record, just above
2005 and 1998, how<BR>> > is this a "lack of temperature going
up"? Have you seen the graphs?<BR>> ><BR>> > Of course none
of this will change your mind, and in a way I'm jealous,<BR>> >
with your head in the sand like that you can still enjoy driving your
car.<BR>> ><BR>> > BTW I do agree with what's been said
about the carbon credit thing being<BR>> > a sham. But you may not
remember that it was the US (Clinton) which<BR>> > insisted on
including it in the Kyoto protocol in the first place (over<BR>> >
the objections of the majority of the delegates). As I recall, we
threw<BR>> > a tantrum and said we wouldn't sign if carbon trading
wasn't included,<BR>> > then we didn't sign anyway, total
irony.<BR>> ><BR>> > Dave<BR>> > (I suppose I should
put the personal post disclaimer here)<BR>> ><BR>> > g.
crabtree wrote:<BR>> >> I generally hate to post news items to
this list but, for those of you<BR>> >> who've been afraid to
light their Yule logs for fear of their carbon<BR>> >>
footprint going up half a shoe size read this, take a deep breath, and
<BR>> >> relax<BR>> >> a little.<BR>>
>><BR>> >>
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=c9554887-802a-23ad-4303-68f67ebd151c<BR>>
>><BR>> >> Anybody out there that was planning on giving
any of their friends or<BR>> >> relatives a nice card and a
bunch of bogus carbon credits may want to<BR>> >> reconsider.
Fire up that old coal powered sleigh and go over the river <BR>>
>> and<BR>> >> through the woods to see Grandmother.
She'll appreciate it.<BR>> >><BR>> >> g<BR>>
>><BR>> ><BR>> >
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<HR>
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! <A
href="http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec"
target=_blank>Check it out!</A>
<HR>
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