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<TITLE>RE: [Vision2020] Seeking some definitions -- just what do you mean?</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Greetings:<BR>
<BR>
Witmer is wrong on at least two counts. First, using the exmaple of the Ik people, who lived under extreme circumstances, is a tad misleading. <BR>
<BR>
Second, only very few schools of Hinduism or Buddhism following the theory of absolute monism, so that generalization is false as well. The law of karma is taken very seriously by most Hindus and Buddhists; its effect are definitely not illusory. Indeed, it is the best example of ethical objectivism: one reaps what one sows and there are no exceptions.<BR>
<BR>
Hindu and Buddhist societies are generally more moral if one takes crime statistics as a basis. For example, a census taken in the 1880s in British India founded that one in 3,000 odd Buddhists, one in 1,700 odd Hindus, but one in 700 odd Indian Christians had committed a crime. I quoting these figures from memory, but I can provide the exact figures for those who are interested.<BR>
<BR>
How does Witmer account for the fact that the most evangelical Christian society in the world (the US) has the highest crime rates, and a post-Christian Europe has very low crime rates and a general incarceration rate that is is generally ten times lower than the U.S.?<BR>
<BR>
Jesus was very late in declaring the Golden Rule. It is found in Confucianism, Buddhism, and Socrates, all pre-Christian sources.<BR>
<BR>
I also object to Witmer's very objectionable thesis that a small number of Jews in Babylonian captivity had that much effect on the general morality of the region. He leaves out the profound influence of Zoroastrianism, which was the first monotheism religion based on personal responsibility.<BR>
<BR>
Nick Gier<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: vision2020-bounces@moscow.com on behalf of Christopher Witmer<BR>
Sent: Sun 11/18/2007 10:11 PM<BR>
To: vision2020@moscow.com<BR>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Seeking some definitions -- just what do you mean?<BR>
<BR>
Ralph Nielsen writes:<BR>
[[ Morality is as old as the hills, Paul. It's all about the Golden <BR>
Rule: Don't do to others what you don't want others to do to you. Or <BR>
as some prefer: Do to others as you would have others do to you. This <BR>
rule is found all around the world, regardless of religion or <BR>
superstition. ]]<BR>
<BR>
Izzat so?<BR>
<BR>
Example 1<BR>
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law . . . There is no Law<BR>
beyond Do what thou wilt" -- Aleister Crowley<BR>
<BR>
Example 2<BR>
Africa's Ik tribe as described by Colin Turnbull in "The Mountain People":<BR>
"Both morality and personality among the Ik were dedicated to the single<BR>
all-consuming passion for self-preservation. There was simply not room in<BR>
the life of these people for such luxuries as family and sentiment and love.<BR>
Nor for any morality beyond 'marangik,' the new lk concept of goodness,<BR>
which means filling one's own stomach."<BR>
<BR>
Example 3<BR>
Influence of Hindic-Buddhistic thinking that all distinctions, including<BR>
distinctions between good and evil, are at base illusory: "We might,<BR>
therefore, say that as personalities we experience a world of duality - of<BR>
good and evil, right and wrong, of spirituality and materiality. Again<BR>
speaking in human terms, this personal duality is replaced by a cosmic<BR>
duality of Being and manifestation. But in truth there is no separateness in<BR>
this higher duality, which in human terms would be experienced as an<BR>
absolute Unity . . . freedom results from a liberation from dualistic<BR>
thinking. We look around at our world, and we see that practically everyone<BR>
is preoccupied with good and evil, with right and wrong, and is busily<BR>
upholding one side or the other, depending upon one's individual<BR>
consciousness. Everyone is trying to right the things that are wrong, and<BR>
manifest that which they deem to be good. Is it not clear, therefore, that<BR>
such action is purely of the ego and the little self? If we instead realize<BR>
that Reality has nothing to do with such dualistic thought and the physical<BR>
world, we would instead choose to rapidly free ourselves from this<BR>
preoccupation, and no longer get involved with efforts to improve our<BR>
personal life or crusades to save the world. We should free ourselves from<BR>
duality of all kinds." -- from "Being and Duality," by Brett Mitchell,<BR>
representing a fairly widespread anti-Christian perspective on morality.<BR>
<BR>
So . . . is the Golden Rule really universal? Hardly. Admittedly, it is<BR>
widespread. It is widespread for the following four reasons. 1) All men are<BR>
created in the image of God, the Lawgiver, and thus naturally carry some<BR>
knowledge, albeit distorted, about true morality. 2) Dating back to<BR>
pre-babelic and pre-Noahic times, the world has received revelation from God<BR>
concerning morality, and this revelation has naturally has a widespread<BR>
influence on various traditions despite the numerous corruptions and<BR>
perversions that crept in. 4) During the Babylonian Captivity, the Jewish<BR>
religion, which at that time had a moral character identical with the<BR>
essential moral character of Christianity, was spread throughout the<BR>
Babylonian empire and remained permanently widespread under the Persians,<BR>
Alexander, and the Romans, leading to a lasting transformation of the major<BR>
world religions with which it came into contact: we see the disappearance of<BR>
human sacrifice around this time. 4) The Christian gospel has had 2000 years<BR>
to influence non-Christian ethical thinking. Every single society and<BR>
religion that teaches the Golden Rule owes Jesus the Messiah a debt of<BR>
thanks, because it comes from Him and He personally demonstrated it through<BR>
every aspect of His walk on this earth.<BR>
<BR>
-- Chris<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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