<div> </div>
<div>keely et. al.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I recall learning this message about the new moral order that Christ brought, when a child in catechism classes. I found it comforting that Christ brought a kinder gentler approach to "punishment." Especially as a child, as most children, hoping to avoid the horrors that all too obviously can befall helpless children. Yet millions (no hyperbole) of fundamentalist Christians in the USA follow the literal moral commands of the Old Testament to some extent, in prejudice against gays and women, for example. Or in corporal punishment of children:
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<td valign="top" width="100%"><font face="trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica"><b>Prov 23:13</b>: "<em>Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.</em>"</font></td></tr>
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<td valign="top" width="100%"><font face="trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica"><b>Prov 23:14</b>: "<em>Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Shoel)</em>."</font></td></tr>
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<p><font face="trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica"><b>Prov 29:15</b>: "<em>The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.</em></font></p></td></tr></tbody></table></div>
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<div>While I prefer the moral approach of the New Testament to the Old, there remains the thorny problem of God changing "his" ethical rules. In one age homosexuals and adulterers are to be stoned, after Jesus a new kinder moral approach. Can God change moral commands? There is the implication of "evolution" of God derived ethical principles, an impossibility if the Old Testament law is God given, literal and perfect, to begin with. Or is the Old Testament not to be taken literally? Then why take the New Testament literally? I don't expect an answer to these questions. I am merely pointing out what some Christians will say.
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<div>Ted Moffett<br><br> </div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/14/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">keely emerinemix</b> <<a href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com">kjajmix1@msn.com</a>> wrote:</span>
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<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma,Helvetica,Sans-Serif">And my eye does pity, actually, anyone who calls himself a Christian and would take joy in adhering to the standards of the Old Testament that Jesus utterly overthrew. Jesus' treatment of the woman caught in adultery is perhaps the clearest example of divine mercy, the overturning of the religious/sociological/legal order, and the revolutionary inter- and intrapersonal engagement the Gospel requires.
<br><br>keely<br></span><br><br><br><br>
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<hr>
From: <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a><br>To: <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target="_blank">
donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>; <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:msolomon@moscow.com" target="_blank">msolomon@moscow.com</a>; <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" target="_blank">
sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a>; <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com" target="_blank">kjajmix1@msn.com</a><br>CC: <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">
vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Coulter's Dream - from CNN<br>Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 15:09:06 -0700<br><br>
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<p><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"The civil magistrate is the minister of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer (Rom. 13:4). God has not left his civil minister without guidance on how to exercise his office. The Scriptures set forth clear standards of judgment for many offenses. Capital crimes, for example, include premeditated killing (murder), kidnapping, sorcery, bestiality, adultery, homosexuality, and cursing one's parents (Ex. 21:14; 21:16; 22:18; 22:19; Lev. 20:10; 20:13; Ex. 21:17)."
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<p><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From "Your Eye Shall Not Pity" by Gregory Dickison where he supports such punishments at:</span></font>
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<p><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://tinyurl.com/yo77oz" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/yo77oz
</a></span></font></p>
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<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><font face="Times New Roman" color="navy" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">Seeya round town, Moscow.<br><br>Tom Hansen<br>Moscow, Idaho<br><br>"Wording plays a big part in understand[ing] the nature and meaning a verse written two thousand years ago in a different language, and some Bibles just have it plain wrong."
<br><br>- Donovan Arnold (August 23, 2005)</span></font></p></div></div>
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<p><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com" target="_blank">
vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a> [mailto:<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>] <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">
On Behalf Of </span></b>Donovan Arnold<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, October 14, 2007 2:54 PM<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b> Mark Solomon; Sunil Ramalingam; keely emerinemix
<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</span></b> <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">
Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] Coulter's Dream - from CNN</span></font></p></div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Ah yes, I see your point, Mark. Why just yesterday I saw the local gays beheaded and my neighbors wife burned alive for her adulterous ways at Friendship Square. Our governments truly are comparative in offense and oppression.
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Best,</span></font></p></div>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Donovan</span></font></p></div>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><br><br><b><i><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">Mark Solomon <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:msolomon@moscow.com" target="_blank">
msolomon@moscow.com</a>></span></i></b> wrote:</span></font></p></div>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Rather than do the point-by-point which has been discussed extensively on this list, try substituting the "current leadership of this country, political and corporate" for "leaders of Middle Eastern nations".
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">m.</span></font></p></div>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">At 1:44 PM -0700 10/14/07, Donovan Arnold wrote:</span></font></p></div>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I wish you would.<br><br><b><i><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">Mark Solomon <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:msolomon@moscow.com" target="_blank">
msolomon@moscow.com</a>></span></i></b> wrote:</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"Most leaders of Middle Eastern nations hoard their nations wealth, living in lavish palaces while their constituents live in dire poverty lacking even the basics of proper medical care. They also deny democracy and a voice to the people, and basic freedom of speech."
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Donovan, do I really have to point out the obvious?</span></font></p></blockquote>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Mark</span></font></p></blockquote>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">At 11:34 AM -0700 10/14/07, Donovan Arnold wrote:<br><br></span></font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I think you would find most Americans are in favor removing the brutal repressive dictatorships that rule over many Muslims nations. Many of them are very wicked people with no morals or concern for the individual well-being of their constituents. Woman are given no rights, non-believers of their faith are killed, as well as homosexuals, or any woman that commits adultery or disobeys her husband, even if she is the victim of rape.
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Most leaders of Middle Eastern nations hoard their nations wealth, living in lavish palaces while their constituents live in dire poverty lacking even the basics of proper medical care. They also deny democracy and a voice to the people, and basic freedom of speech.
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I personally, don't see how others can agree with the justification of supporting these governments as Sunil does.</span></font></p></blockquote>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">As to converting people to Christianity, I think that is a separate goal that needs to be done by private citizens exercising their first amendment rights. I don't think you would find most Christians believe you can physically force people into accepting Christ as your savior. It think it is something that most be done one on one with Christ.
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I believe that all peoples have the right to a government that is working on behalf of all their constituents and allows people the freedom to explore and find another faith. In many of these brutal nations which Sunil defends the people do not enjoy these rights.
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Best,</span></font></p></blockquote>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Donovan</span></font></p></blockquote>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><br><br><b><i><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">Sunil Ramalingam <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" target="_blank">
sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a>></span></i></b> wrote:</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The criticisms of Coulter are on target, particularly after you look at<br>other things she has said or written. Here's her gem about Muslims:<br>
<br>'We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to<br>Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only<br>Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed
<br>civilians. That's war. And this is war.'<br><br>As Carl has said, saying outrageous things is her shtick. But to look at<br>the quote that got this discussion going and finding harmless explanations<br>is like digging through her excrement and looking for diamonds. Either way
<br>you're covered with her crap.<br><br>Sunil<br><br><br>> > > Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 06:46:38 -0700<br>> > > From: <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net" target="_blank">
joekc@adelphia.net</a><br>> > > To: <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>> > > Subject: [Vision2020] Coulter's Dream - from CNN
<br>> > ><br>> > > Conservative commentator and best-selling author Ann<br>> > Coulter may find herself in the midst of a controversy for<br>> > comments Monday suggesting America would be better if
<br>> > everyone was Christian.<br>> > ><br>> > > Asked by CNBC host Donny Deutsch what the U.S. looks like<br>> > in her dreams, Coulter said it would look like the<br>> > Republican National Convention in 2004
<br>> > ><br>> > > "People were happy," she said, according to a transcript<br>> > provided to CNN by CNBC. "They're Christian. They're<br>> > tolerant. They defend America."
<br>> > ><br>> > > When Deutsch responded, "It would be better if we were<br>> > all Christian?" Coulter said "Yeah."<br>> > ><br>> > > Deutsch, himself Jewish, continued to press Coulter on
<br>> > her remarks, asking, "We should just throw Judaism away</span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">> > and we should all be Christians then?"<br>> > ><br>> > > "Yeah," Coulter responded, adding "Well, it's a lot
<br>> > easier. It's kind of a fast track."<br>> > ><br>> > > "You can't possibly believe that," Deutsch responded.<br>> > "You can't possibly. You're too educated."
<br>> > ><br>> > > "Do you know what Christianity is?" Coulter replied.<br>> > "See, we believe your religion, but you have to obey. We</span></font></p></blockquote>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">> > have the fast track program."<br>> > ><br>> > > Later in the interview Deutsch asked Coulter if she<br>> > doesn't want any Jews in the world, Coulter responded,
<br>> > "No, we think — we just want Jews to be perfected, as they<br>> > say."<br>> > ><br>> > > "Wow, you didn't really say that, did you," Deutsch said.<br>> > >
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