<div> </div>
<div>Kai et. al.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Kai, you are not addressing the central theme of this thread that Paul started, which I specifically addressed in my reply to his post. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Anyway, I think it is questionable to label a group "terrorist" for arson when steps were taken to avoid deaths... The killing of civilians for political reasons is the short definition of "terrorism," and I do not accept that arson, especially when the evidence indicates the arsonists took steps to avoid deaths, should be labeled as "terrorism." If someone trys to take down an airliner loaded with passengers, plants a bomb in a crowded bus, burns down a building full of people after chaining the exit doors shut... This is terrorism.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>But I have no axe to grind on the issue of "eco-terrorism." There may very well be examples of civilians killed by environmental groups for political purposes. I only asked for examples. And for you explain why such groups should be labeled "on the left," given whatever definition of "left" you are using.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>So you want to define the ELF arson as a terrorist attack, given the possibility that someone may have been killed (proving they were "willing to kill?"), even when it appeared they tried to avoid deaths, and no deaths occurred? Well, OK. I just don't think this arson clearly indicates the "willingness to kill" you mention. There appeared in fact to not be a willingness to kill.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I do not understand what "nerve" you thought you had struck, unless its the nerve (actually, billions of neurons) that asks for reasonable evidence for extraordinary claims, before accepting the claims, like the extraordinary claim that the Bible or the Koran is the literal absolute word of the one creator of the universe.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Ted Moffett</div>
<div> </div>
<div><br> </div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/1/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Kai Eiselein, editor</b> <<a href="mailto:editor@lataheagle.com">editor@lataheagle.com</a>> wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div>Ted, since the ALF opposes hunting it can be considered an extremist environmental group. It has, in fact, worked in tandem with ELF.</div>
<div>I stated <em>"Anyone who is willing to torch a building is <u><strong>willing to kill</strong></u> anyone inside</em>."</div>
<div><font size="2"><font size="3">I also stated " <em>Most notably on the left are extremist environmental groups that engage in eco-terrorism. Using Dawkins line of reasoning, anyone who is environmentaly friendly could be seen assupportive of eco-terrorism. Any belief, taken too far, can result in fanatical zealots
<u><strong>willing to kill</strong></u> anyone opposed to their viewpoint."</em></font></font></div>
<div><font size="2"><font size="3">Nowhere in my post did I state anyone did kill, just the willingness to do so as evidenced by their actions.</font></font></div>
<div><font size="2"><font size="3">I'm not the one pulling the switcheroo, you are.</font></font></div>
<div><br> </div>
<div>----- Original Message ----- </div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><span class="q">
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><b>From:</b> <a title="starbliss@gmail.com" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com" target="_blank">Ted Moffett</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="editor@lataheagle.com" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:editor@lataheagle.com" target="_blank">Kai Eiselein, editor</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="ophite@gmail.com" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com" target="_blank">Andreas Schou</a> ; <a title="godshatter@yahoo.com" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">
Paul Rumelhart</a> ; <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">Vision2020</a> </div></span>
<div><span class="e" id="q_1155e058f6701692_2">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 01, 2007 4:48 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Are you enabling extremism?</div>
<div><br> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Kai et. al.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I think your focus on environmental terrorism is off the main topic of this thread, but I will pursue your line of reasoning just a bit, before asking you to address my point, made earlier in this thread, that was on topic.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I am asking for your documentation of deaths committed by environmental groups in "terrorist" attacks, because I question the veracity of this claim that you made. The ALF is not an environmental group. The Earth Liberation Front is an environmental group.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I have not found any documentation that the Earth Liberation Front has killed anyone in a terrorist attack.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>So I am still asking for your documentation....Given you made the claim, you should have an example at hand. Asking someone else to prove your point with evidence seems rather lame.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If you cannot provide it, then just say you cannot provide it...You may have good evidence to support your claim. Please offer it.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>However, if you really want a logical and fact based dialog on the critical focus of this thread, clearly stated by Paul when he started this thread, regarding religious belief promoting extremism, then respond to my post where I raise the specific example of people who promote the idea that the Bible or the Koran is the literal absolute word of the creator of the universe, with very questionable evidence this is true, and act on this belief in extreme ways. I can list numerous examples of those who insist the Bible or the Koran contains the literal word of the creator of the universe, and use this belief to justify numerous ethical harms: oppression of women, prejudice against gays, corporal punishment of children, human rights violating applications of the death penalty, to name a few.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It seems you are trying to "bait and switch" in this thread, by focusing on what you call "environmental terrorism," without being willing to document your implication that deaths occurred in such attacks, while ignoring my point about terrorism resulting in deaths committed by religious extremists who use their absolute belief in the literal word of God as contained in the Bible or Koran, as justification.
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I will document my claim that people who insist the Bible or the Koran is the literal word of the creator of the universe, sometimes follow this belief resulting in extreme terrorist acts... Or have you forgotten 9/11?
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Ted Moffett</div>
<div> </div>
<div><br><br> </div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 10/1/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Kai Eiselein, editor</b> <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:editor@lataheagle.com" target="_blank">editor@lataheagle.com
</a>> wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font size="2">Ted,</font></div>
<div><font size="2">I can't believe you've never heard of the Animal Liberation Front (ALF) or the Earth Liberation Front (ELF), both of which engage in attacks against entities they disagree with. Perhaps you've forgotten the string of arsons that took place from the 90's and into 2001 in Oregon and Washington in which the ELF claimed responsibility? Or the arrests in 2006 of several members of ELF in connection with those arsons?
</font><font size="2">Anyone who is willing to torch a building is willing to kill anyone inside.</font></div>
<div><font size="2">I must have struck a nerve, since you are making demands rather than engaging in debate. From your posts about global warming, typhoons and such, I know you are perfectly capable of finding information on the web. Quit feigning ignorance/stupidity, it doesn't become you.
</font></div>
<div><font size="2">I'll not waste my time digging up information that has been well publicized and is readily available just because you demand it.</font></div>
<div><font size="2">Debate is the art of point-counter point, Ted. Not demand, counter demand.</font></div>
<blockquote dir="ltr" style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><span>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><b>From:</b> <a title="starbliss@gmail.com" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com" target="_blank">Ted Moffett</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="editor@lataheagle.com" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:editor@lataheagle.com" target="_blank">Kai Eiselein, editor</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="ophite@gmail.com" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com" target="_blank">Andreas Schou</a> ; <a title="godshatter@yahoo.com" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">
Paul Rumelhart</a> ; <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">Vision2020</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 01, 2007 12:19 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Are you enabling extremism?</div>
<div><br> </div>
<div> </div></span>
<div><span>
<div>Kai et. al.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Will you please offer examples of what you call "eco-terrorism," engaged in by what you described as "on the left are extremist environmental groups," that have resulted in deliberately caused deaths by "fanatics willing to kill," as you phrased it, such as a terrorist bombing (a road side IED, or a car bomb, truck bomb, or bombing of a train or bus, etc.) of civilians would inflict? This is a very serious charge, that should not be made casually... I am not saying there are not examples of this, just asking you to provide well founded empirical documentation. Please provide the name of the environmental group, document their affiliation with what you termed "the left" (please explain how you define "the left," and why they represent "the left," rather than just "left field"), and the date and details of the terrorist attack.&nbs!
p;
<br> </div>
<div>Ted Moffett</div>
<div>----</div>
<div>Kai wrote:<br> </div>
<div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"> Most notably on the left are<br>extremist environmental groups that engage in eco-terrorism. Using Dawkins
<br>line of reasoning, anyone who is environmentaly friendly could be seen as<br>supportive of eco-terrorism.<br>Any belief, taken too far, can result in fanatical zealots willing to kill<br>anyone opposed to their viewpoint.
<br></blockquote></div></span></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br></span></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br>