<div>The first link is private, the second is MSNBC. The poem, Paster Norman Niemoller</div>
<div> </div>
<div><a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=SaiWCS10C5s">http://youtube.com/watch?v=SaiWCS10C5s</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div><a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=tCBcOQkUNjI">http://youtube.com/watch?v=tCBcOQkUNjI</a>
<h2>First They Came for the Jews</h2>
<p>First they came for the Jews<br>and I did not speak out<br>because I was not a Jew.<br></p>
<p>Then they came for the Communists<br>and I did not speak out<br>because I was not a Communist.<br></p>
<p>Then they came for the trade unionists<br>and I did not speak out<br>because I was not a trade unionist.<br></p>
<p>Then they came for me<br>and there was no one left<br>to speak out for me.<br></p><em>Pastor Martin Niemöller</em> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><br><br> </div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 9/24/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">lfalen</b> <<a href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com">lfalen@turbonet.com</a>> wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">I did not see or read about the incident so can't speak to it. I support the right to free speech. This does have some limitations though, such as crying fire in a crowed theater and disrupting a meeting. I don't know if this individual was being disruptive or not. If he was that would be grounds for removing him.
<br>Roger<br>-----Original message-----<br>From: keely emerinemix <a href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com">kjajmix1@msn.com</a><br>Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:21:04 -0700<br>To: "g. crabtree" <a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">
jampot@roadrunner.com</a>, Sunil <a href="mailto:Ramalingamsunilramalingam@hotmail.com">Ramalingamsunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Kerry speech/student tasered<br><br>><br>> Gary, free speech gives everyone "unlimited license to act the fool;" it's when foolishness becomes actually dangerous -- you know, yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater -- that it is rightly restricted. I suspect you're aware of that, but partisanship makes it easier to momentarily forget that while making, in some vague way, a political statement.
<br>><br>> keely<br>><br>><br>> From: <a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</a><br>> To: <a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a><br>> Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 11:56:42 -0700
<br>> CC: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Kerry speech/student tasered<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>><br>
> I understand perfectly well that you're unhappy<br>> with Theresa's boy<br>> and I'm skeptical about your assertion. Would you<br>> have extended your argument to the Yippies in Chicago in '68? Violence as speech
<br>> in a political setting. I do not believe that the constitution gives a person<br>> unlimited license to act the fool as long as what they say (or do) can in some<br>> vague way be construed as a political statement.
<br>><br>> g<br>> ----- Original Message -----<br>> From: "Sunil Ramalingam" <<a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a>><br>> Cc: <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">
vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>> Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 10:49<br>> AM<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Kerry speech/student<br>> tasered<br>><br>> > Wrong. I absolutely would make the identical argument.
<br>> I'm talking about<br>> > the Constitution, not my own preferences. And<br>> isince you missed it, most of<br>> > my condemnation here is for the person I<br>> voted for in the last election, not
<br>> > Bush.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> Sunil<br>> ><br>> ><br>> >>From: "g. crabtree" <<a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>><br>> >>To: "Sunil Ramalingam" <
<a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a>><br>> >>CC: <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>> >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Kerry speech/student
<br>> tasered<br>> >>Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 18:51:43<br>> -0700<br>> >><br>> >>I very much doubt that you would be making the same<br>> argument if the guy was<br>> >>a raving Bush supporter who refused to stand
<br>> down after his time was up and<br>> >>only wanted to hold forth, not ask a<br>> specific question.<br>> >><br>> >>g<br>> >>----- Original Message<br>> ----- From: "Sunil Ramalingam"
<br>> >><<a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a>><br>> >>Cc: <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>> >>Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 6:25
<br>> PM<br>> >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Kerry speech/student<br>> tasered<br>> >><br>> >><br>> >>>Paul,<br>> >>><br>> >>>The<br>> possibility that the student was looking to 'shake things up' is,
<br>> if<br>> >>>true, irrelevant. He was at a political forum engaging<br>> in political<br>> >>>speech.<br>> >>> That's protected by<br>> the First Amendment. None of us have to like it;
<br>><br>> >>>it's<br>> >>>protected speech. I wouldn't say there<br>> was a 'conspiracy' to shut his<br>> >>>views<br>> >>>down, but<br>> someone made the wrong decision to shut down what was clearly
<br>> a<br>> >>>dialog between him and Kerry.<br>> >>><br>> >>>I<br>> won't defend the decision to taser him. I think it's abominable.<br>> They<br>> >>>shouldn't have been touching him, let alone choosing between
<br>> options such<br>> >>>as<br>> >>>electrocuting him or dislocating<br>> his shoulder or breaking his wrist. They<br>> >>>were state actors<br>> shutting down free speech, and they shouldn't have been
<br>> >>>doing<br>> anything of the sort. They should have allowed him to exercise<br>> his<br>> >>>rights.<br>> >>><br>> >>>It would be different<br>> if he showed up and did this in your living room;
<br>><br>> >>>but<br>> >>>this was a political event. There are<br>> few places where political speech<br>> >>>is<br>> >>>more<br>> appropriate than in this setting.
<br>> >>><br>> >>>You're right<br>> that Kerry didn't initiate anything. Instead of trying to<br>><br>> >>>stop<br>> >>>this, he did nothing but drone on. He
<br>> could have told the cops there was<br>> >>>no<br>> >>>need for<br>> their action. He could have reminded them that this is<br>> America,<br>> >>>and that citizens are allowed to question politicians,
<br>> and that<br>> >>>politicians<br>> >>>answer to the People.<br>> What a chance to show what free speech means! But<br>> >>>instead<br>> he showed once again his innate ability to miss an
<br>> opportunity;<br>> >>>oddly enough, that was the thesis of one of the<br>> student's<br>> questions.<br>> >>><br>> >>>Sunil<br>> >>><br>> >>><br>
> >>>>From:<br>> Paul Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>><br>> >>>>To: Ted Moffett <<a href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com">starbliss@gmail.com
</a>><br>> >>>>CC: Sunil Ramalingam <<a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a>>,<br>><br>> >>>><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com
</a><br>> >>>>Subject: Re:<br>> [Vision2020] Kerry speech/student tasered<br>> >>>>Date: Fri, 21 Sep<br>> 2007 17:34:15 -0700<br>> >>>><br>> >>>>I think there are a
<br>> couple of things going on here.<br>> >>>><br>> >>>>The first<br>> was a decision by the police to remove him from the<br>> microphone<br>> >>>>and from the vicinity. The second was to
<br>> taser him when they did. I'm<br>> >>>>unsure about the first<br>> decision. I have little pity for him, because I<br>> >>>>think<br>> he was looking for an avenue to "shake things up". That's just
<br>> my<br>> >>>>opinion. I also don't think he was removed from the<br>> podium because of<br>> >>>>any<br>> >>>>specific thing he<br>> said. I don't think he was removed because he
<br>> was<br>> >>>>upsetting Kerry, either. I think he was removed<br>> because he was<br>> >>>>recognized<br>> >>>>as someone who<br>> disrupts public events. I would rather that they let
<br>> him<br>> >>>>finish his question. However, I don't think he<br>> wanted to be allowed to<br>> >>>>finish his question, I think he<br>> wanted to make a scene. I don't see a
<br>> >>>>conspiracy to<br>> shut this man's views down. If he had asked them calmly<br>><br>> >>>>and<br>> >>>>politely, he would probably have been<br>> fine.<br>
> >>>><br>> >>>>The decision to taser him when they<br>> did I can somewhat agree with. They<br>> >>>>were removing him<br>> from the room, and he would not calm down and submit to
<br>> >>>>that<br>> action. When they had him on the ground, presumably trying to<br>> get<br>> >>>>cuffs on him, he wouldn't stop shouting and wouldn't<br>> cooperate. So they
<br>> >>>>tasered him, after warning him they<br>> were going to taser him several<br>> >>>>times,<br>> >>>>in<br>> order to shake him up long enough to get control of him. I think
<br>> they<br>> >>>>chose to do that rather than to do something more<br>> damaging, such as<br>> >>>>dislocating a shoulder or breaking a<br>> wrist. I say that I can "somewhat"
<br>> >>>>agree with the<br>> decision because I'm not an expert in restraining<br>> someone.<br>> >>>>Perhaps they had other less headline-making options<br>> at their disposal.
<br>> >>>><br>> >>>>This is all my opinion<br>> from watching one of the videos on youtube that<br>> >>>>shows the<br>> arrest, and from reading comments on various websites on
<br>> this<br>> >>>>guy's history.<br>> >>>><br>> >>>>I<br>> also think this had nothing to do with Kerry. He was willing to<br>> answer<br>> >>>>the questions, and he didn't initiate
<br>> anything.<br>> >>>><br>> >>>>Paul<br>> >>>><br>> >>>>Ted<br>> Moffett wrote:<br>> >>>>>Sunil et.<br>> al.<br>> >>>>> Sorry, I had not read the story at the
<br>> "Counterpunch" link you<br>><br>> >>>>>offered.<br>> >>>>>And given some of the<br>> responses to this thread, I wonder how many others<br>> >>>>>read
<br>> the story. I found out what the student was questioning Kerry<br>><br>> >>>>>about<br>> >>>>>(the Palast book and the<br>> "stolen" election of 2004, etc.) from
<br>> other<br>> >>>>>sources. The more I find out about what<br>> happened in this incident, the<br>> >>>>>more disturbing the police<br>> response appears. As the "Counterpunch"
<br>><br>> >>>>>story<br>> >>>>>headline questions, "Why<br>> did Senator John Kerry stand idly by?" I<br>><br>> >>>>>wonder<br>> >>>>>if Kerry has issued any
<br>> public responses to the coverage of this story<br>><br>> >>>>>in<br>> >>>>>the<br>> media.<br>> >>>>> Meyer (the tasered student) asked very good<br>> questions that need to be
<br>> >>>>>asked over and<br>> over...<br>> >>>>> The questions asked were, according to the<br>> "Counterpunch" article:<br>> >>>>> At the conclusion of
<br>> Kerry's speech, Andrew Meyer, a 21-year old<br>> >>>>>journalism<br>> student was selected by Senator Kerry to ask a question.<br>><br>> >>>>>Meyer<br>> >>>>>held up a copy of BBC
<br>> investigative reporter Greg Palast's book,<br>> Armed<br>> >>>>>Madhouse, and asked if Kerry was aware that<br>> Palast's investigations<br>> >>>>>determined that Kerry had
<br>> actually won the election. Why, Meyer asked,<br>> >>>>>had<br>> Kerry conceded the election so quickly when there were so many<br>><br>> >>>>>obvious<br>> >>>>>examples of vote
<br>> fraud? Why, Meyer, went on to ask, was Kerry refusing<br>><br>> >>>>>to<br>> >>>>>consider Bush's impeachment<br>> when Bush was about to initiate another act<br>>
<br>> >>>>>of<br>> >>>>>military aggression, this time<br>> against<br>> Iran?<br>> >>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
<br>> >>>>>Ted<br>> Moffett<br>> >>>>><br>> >>><br>> >>><br>> >>>=======================================================<br>> >>>List<br>
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</blockquote></div><br>