<DIV>Nick and Sunil ignore the truth and try to make their own:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.”--Thomas Jefferson</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>If one doesn't believe in God, then one cannot believe in unalienable rights of humans. All rights, to those that do not believe in a God, must alternatively believe that all rights derived from the minds of men. If rights are not given and taken by God, then they are only given and taken by men, which gives no man any unalienable rights from his fellow humans. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where does your right not to be send to Guantanamo Bay as a terrorist, tortured, and held indefinitely with no access to a legal representation come from? You have no appeal other than the wisdom
and say so of flawed rich white men that died two centuries ago and the opinions of others today.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't believe the right to freely practice your faith, the right not to endure unfair punishment, the right to own and protect your property and your livelihood comes from Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, John Jay, John Hancock, and other rich white privileged men from centuries past, I think those rights came a long time ago by God, and it was only they, using their Christian upbringing that were able to put them crudely into a government document. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"We hold these truths to be self evident" would not have meaning, unless one believed in a divine authority in which that self evidence is predicated. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Donovan</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Nick Gier <ngier@uidaho.edu></I></B> wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Greetings:<BR><BR>I think that conservative evangelical theologian Carl Henry, author of the largest work of systematic theology in American history, got it right when he declared that the Bible grants rights only to God and strict duties to his created men and women, whom he owns, according to John Locke, because he has mixed his labor with the dust of the earth to create them. We should all admire Locke, but this was one holler that got by his otherwise thoroughly liberal mind.<BR><BR>So much for biblical foundations for the American Constitution or any other liberal democratic state for that matter.<BR><BR>Nick Gier, proud theistic humanist along with many other founding American thinkers<BR><BR>At 01:09 PM 8/26/2007, you wrote:<BR>I don't see where separation of power is a Christian concept. I don't think <BR>the Bible addresses such issues as inalienable rights, or freedom of
speech <BR>or the freedom of religion (for all). If such directives exist and are <BR>recognized as Christian theology I'm glad to admit being wrong, but after <BR>years of Sunday School and church, I don't recognize them as Christian <BR>principles I've been taught or heard. Of course I grew up Anglican and <BR>Episcopalian.<BR><BR>I don't think Christianity forms the basis for our Constitution. I'm <BR>certainly willing to consider examples from the Bible that prove me wrong, <BR>if they can be provided. And I certainly don't see God standing between us <BR>and those interpreting away the rights recognized in the Constitution. When <BR>I think God agrees with me, I certainly hope for that outcome...<BR><BR>Sunil<BR><BR><BR>>From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>>To: nickgier@adelphia.net, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter@yahoo.com><BR>>CC: vision2020@moscow.com<BR>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] and speaking of
religion in public places<BR>>Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 12:53:29 -0700 (PDT)<BR>><BR>>Nick Gier and his cronies just don't understand what Sali is saying.<BR>><BR>> The principles of our Constitution are etched from the rock of <BR>>Christianity. You cannot remove the rock without removing its authority. <BR>>The Constitution is meaningless if it doesn't have Christianity as a bases <BR>>of its authority, derived only because of Christianity.<BR>><BR>> Who says all men are equal? Who says you have unalienable rights? Who <BR>>says you have the right to freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom <BR>>from unfair trial?<BR>><BR>> Those rights are not granted to men by men, they are granted to men by <BR>>God, the Christian God. And that is what gives the US Constitution its <BR>>authority, its greatness, and truthfulness. Otherwise, the Constitution was <BR>>written, and the rights
granted us within, are not real rights, or moral <BR>>principles of God's justice, but in fact, just something a bunch fat <BR>>balding rich guys wearing white wigs came up with on a hot sweaty day in <BR>>July at the turn of the 18th century hiding from the British authorities.<BR>><BR>> I believe certain rights are given to us by God, and that many of those <BR>>rights are engraved into the Constitution. If you don't believe this too, <BR>>then the only thing giving the Constitution, and your rights are men, men <BR>>who decide arbitrarily what rights you have and don't have at any time or <BR>>place. It makes the Constitution a document that is enforceable only by the <BR>>threat of a gun and the will of the powerful men that yield it.<BR>><BR>> Best,<BR>><BR>> Donovan<BR>><BR>><BR><X-SIGSEP> <DIV></X-SIGSEP><FONT size=2>"Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application of it to
human affairs."<BR>--Ralph Waldo Emerson<BR><BR>"Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings who represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."<BR> --Mohandas Gandhi<BR><BR>"Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot be discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each part by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and on the interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our intellectual life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between science, religion, and art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum of its various parts." --Ma</FONT><FONT size=1>x Planck<BR><BR></FONT>Nicholas F. Gier<BR>Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho<BR>1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843<BR><A href="http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/home.htm" eudora="autourl">www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/home.htm<BR></A>208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950<BR>President, Idaho Federation of
Teachers, AFL-CIO<BR><A href="http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm" eudora="autourl">http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm<BR><BR></A>=======================================================<BR>List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <BR>http://www.fsr.net <BR>mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>=======================================================</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p> 
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