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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Nazi? Mr. bigot? I guess when the discussion
evolves beyond "does not-did too" there's nothing like a little name calling to
bolster your thesis. Ph.D you say? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So "your main point" asserts that because your
paisan is large and intimidating, I would not support freedom of expression
in his presence. The implication being that your pal would hear the message,
disagree with it, and in a fit of uncontrollable rage assault me for having
an opinion that was different from his own. I've only two things to say about
that. A: Once again it's all about the implied threat and B: Considering your
assessment of your home boys lack of impulse control and his predicted
behavior, you've got a lot of nerve to be calling me a bigot.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From: "Joe Campbell" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>joekc@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To: "g. crabtree" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Cc: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; "keely
emerinemix" <</FONT><A href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>kjajmix1@msn.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:34
PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival
protest</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Well, it wasn’t long at all – less than 24 hours in fact – before you
took another cheap <BR>shot, alluding to my moment of transgression. Still, that
might be a record!<BR><BR>There was no threat, Mr. Bigot. (I’m taking to heart
your point about the right to speech <BR>being absolute.) <BR><BR>My main point
was that neither you nor Mr. Wilson would dare play your silly rhetorical
<BR>games in contexts where offended folks might hear you. One set of exceptions
include <BR>cases where you offend gays and lesbians, who for reasons that do
and do not escape me, <BR>are unlikely to raise much of a fuss. (Their mothers
are another matter.) But as my friends <BR>back east remind me, this is just how
it started in Nazi Germany, with criticisms about <BR>gays and lesbians. It only
expanded once the majority of folks came into the fold.<BR><BR>In any event, my
main point was that if you wouldn’t say it in front of my friend Ray or
<BR>Martina Navratilova, then you just shouldn’t say it.<BR><BR>That’s the
point, Mr. Bigot!<BR><BR>--<BR>Joe Campbell<BR><BR>---- "g. crabtree"
<</FONT><A href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>> wrote:
<BR><BR>=============<BR>So just exactly what is it that your "friends" are
going to do that would <BR>prevent me from reneging on my belief that the right
to express a point of <BR>view is absolute? There is something you really need
to get through your <BR>head. Threats don't cut any ice. Just because you and
your apparently <BR>thuggish buddies have the mistaken impression that you are
standing up for <BR>some absolute doesn't mean intimidation is somehow cool.
Then again maybe <BR>it's a Jersey thing?<BR><BR>g<BR>----- Original Message
----- <BR>From: "Joe Campbell" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>joekc@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>To: "g.
crabtree" <</FONT><A href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>Cc:
<</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; "keely
emerinemix" <</FONT><A href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>kjajmix1@msn.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>Sent:
Thursday, August 16, 2007 1:35 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival
protest<BR><BR><BR>Gary,<BR><BR>Let's see how long you can go without mentioning
the incident!<BR><BR>And who is talking about what happened 150 years ago? I'm
talking about <BR>Wilson's historical revisionism, which is less than a decade
old. <BR>Revisionism about slavery is just as bad as revisionism about the
holocaust <BR>in my book. We are not talking about mere opinions; we're talking
about <BR>radical rightwing viewspoints.<BR><BR>Again, I would like to see you
give support for Wilson's right -- his moral <BR>right, not his legal right
which no one doubts -- to suggest that slavery <BR>has a biblical justification
to some of my Christian African-American <BR>friends!<BR><BR>--<BR>Joe
Campbell<BR><BR>---- "g. crabtree" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
wrote:<BR><BR>=============<BR>As I have said before, I believe you already! I
did not bring the incident<BR>up to point fingers at any individual (note the
lack of names) but to marvel<BR>at how it's a joke or at worst a minor lapse in
manners to out right<BR>threaten someone with bodily injury but to comment on
something that<BR>happened 150 years ago, rightly or wrongly, is an unforgivable
horror that<BR>threatens the entire fabric of society and intimidates people for
miles<BR>around. Seems a little odd to me. I'm just sayin.<BR><BR>g<BR><BR>-----
Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Joe Campbell" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>joekc@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>To: "g.
crabtree" <</FONT><A href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>Cc:
<</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; "keely
emerinemix" <</FONT><A href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>kjajmix1@msn.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>Sent: Tuesday,
August 14, 2007 6:18 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival
protest<BR><BR><BR>Gary,<BR><BR>What double-standard? I acknowledged that mine
was a mistake. I said I was<BR>sorry -- if you don't believe my sincerity, I'll
say it again: I'm VERY<BR>sorry.<BR><BR>And we are talking about my one admitted
mistake, over a long period of<BR>public discourse, against a string of more
intimindating speech toward<BR>African-Americans, gays, feminists, Muslims,
liberals, lesbians,<BR>progressives,<BR>etc.<BR><BR>And don't even get me
started about those zoning issues!<BR><BR>--<BR>Joe Campbell<BR><BR>---- "g.
crabtree" <</FONT><A href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
wrote:<BR><BR>=============<BR>So let me get this straight. If one of your
buddies comes right out and<BR>threatens a person on this forum with bodily
harm, ala punch them in the<BR>nose or kick their cod piece into low earth orbit
it's merely a jolly jest.<BR>To express an opinion on matters theological or
temporal is "horrific" and<BR>"intimidating."I think what it is that I'm
forgetting is the enormous double<BR>standard that you have erected for yourself
and your faithful.<BR><BR>g<BR> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: keely emerinemix<BR> To: g. crabtree ; Joe Campbell<BR> Cc:
</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2> Sent:
Tuesday, August 14, 2007 8:53 AM<BR> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Trinity
Festival protest<BR><BR><BR> There's another saying, Gary, that goes, "All
things in their own time."<BR>I think you're forgetting that they don't feel
free to do the "action" thing<BR>now -- but have every expectation to when the
time is right for good ol'<BR>Christian patriarchal dominion to take center
stage.<BR><BR> And, by the way, words are horrific as well. I know
of a man on this list<BR>who's still reeling from Joan Opyr's
frustration-driven-but-still-in-jest<BR>promise to levy a well-placed kick in
the groin. It's evidently had quite<BR>the impact on him. Words can,
indeed, have enormous effect.<BR><BR>
keely<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
From: </FONT><A href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2> To: </FONT><A href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>joekc@adelphia.net</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2> Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 06:52:22
-0700<BR> CC: </FONT><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival
protest<BR><BR><BR> Mr. Campbell,<BR><BR>
There is a big difference between how people ARE treated and how
someone<BR>might feel after misinterpreting (or having it misinterpreted for
them) any<BR>given message. One you have direct control over and are
completely<BR>responsible for the other is left in the hands of the recipient to
do with<BR>what they will. If they decide to "feel" bad I'm afraid that there is
little<BR>to be done for it. As I have said before, it's my understanding that
Mr.<BR>Wilson's congregation is made up of a variety of people including
minorities<BR>and homosexuals. (a recent interview in the LMT on seminary
student Chris<BR>Morris leaps immediately to mind)<BR><BR>
There's an old saying that periodically makes the rounds that states<BR>"actions
speak louder than words." I think that this particularly applies<BR>when the
words have been manipulated by others to stir up the maximum level<BR>of foment.
On the other hand the actions that I have been able to see with<BR>my own two
eyes lead me to believe that the community in question is<BR>ultimately
benign.<BR><BR> If you want to make an effective case against
this group, stop<BR>reinterpreting fellow detractors reinterpretations of books,
articles and<BR>news stories and point to solid evidence of the horrors that you
claim are<BR>occurring on a daily basis. I'm guessing that while you and yours
are long<BR>on rhetoric your short on specifics. Till you can turn that equation
around<BR>I'm afraid that it's you that is
"irrelevant."<BR><BR> g<BR> ----- Original
Message ----- <BR> From: "Joe Campbell" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>joekc@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR> To: "g. crabtree" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR> Cc: "Andreas Schou" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>ophite@gmail.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; "Warren
Hayman"<BR><</FONT><A href="mailto:whayman@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>whayman@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>;
<</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR> Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 2:33
PM<BR> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival
protest<BR><BR><BR> Gary,<BR><BR> For the
most part, your points below are irrelevant. My concern for<BR>Wilson is not
with<BR> how he treats the women in his family. My concern is
not even about how<BR>he'd treat me,<BR> or how Doug Farris
would treat me, were I to join either for dinner. I<BR>feel pretty
confident<BR> that they'll treat me just fine -- white,
Christian male that I am.<BR><BR> My concern is about how my
Jewish friends might be treated. My concern<BR>is how my<BR>
Muslim, lesbian, and atheist friends ARE being treated, given
Wilson’s<BR>threatening and<BR> divisive speech. I worry about
the feelings of my Christian,<BR>African-American friends,<BR>
given Wilson’s justification of slavery.<BR><BR> I noticed
that you haven't said anything about this view:<BR><BR> All
non-Christians hate God,<BR><BR> which was apparently endorsed
by some of your Kirk friends. I imagine<BR>that it will
take<BR> awhile to piece together a justification for this, or
even to explain<BR>how it is that folks can<BR> say something
so stupid yet complain when they get criticism back
in<BR>response.<BR><BR> --<BR> Joe
Campbell<BR><BR> ---- "g. crabtree" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
wrote:<BR><BR> =============<BR> Other works
by this author causes me to firmly doubt that he is
likely<BR>to<BR> refer to his mother, sister, wife, daughters,
daughters in law or grand<BR> daughters as "chattel." Prove me
wrong.<BR><BR> g<BR> ----- Original Message
----- <BR> From: "Andreas Schou" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>ophite@gmail.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR> To: "g. crabtree" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>jampot@roadrunner.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR> Cc: "Warren Hayman" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:whayman@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>whayman@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>;
<</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>>;<BR>"Joe<BR> Campbell" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>joekc@adelphia.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR> Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 5:56
PM<BR> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival
protest<BR><BR><BR> >> I recommend _Her Hand
in<BR> >> Marriage_ or _Reforming Marriage_, in which
Doug discusses how a<BR>woman<BR> >> is to pass as
chattel between her father and her future husband.<BR>
>><BR> >> Quite simply it does
not.<BR> ><BR> > And how, Gary, did
you come to be aware of this, given that you have<BR> >
read neither book?<BR> ><BR> > --
ACS<BR>
><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
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