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I'm afraid I find Doug Farris' arguments below to be mistaken on two fronts.<br><br>As far as "be fruitful and multiply," I believe the world has expanded pretty completely from Adam and Eve, who were both given that mandate. Further, most scholars and students of Scripture understand that an "imperative of blessing" is not a command to do the action described, but, as a blessing, expresses the desire of the Blessor. If I say to Doug Farris, "be well and live long," I don't hunt him down to see if he's done what I said when he ends up sick, nor do I show up at his funeral to comment on how his longevity reflected obedience to my command. It's a blessing, not the issuance of orders.<br><br>So yeah -- Adam and Eve were told to multiply, and they did. That imperative of blessing hardly is relevant to Farris' having eight children. What is relevant is that Farris believes that his wife's fecundity is striking a blow against what he insensitively calls "Mohammedism" (I presume that would be the faith of "Mohammedens"), it does no such thing -- except possibly contribute to hostilities between Muslims and Christians by peppering them with more children raised in culturally tone-deaf households. The "full quiver" of many children as "arrows" in the fight against perceived Godlessness is a fallacy; the Kingdom of God is not dependent on the fruit of my womb, his loins, or numerous test tubes in the lab. Further, the blessing of a full quiver is noted in the context of both the love and joy children bring to those who choose to have them, as well as -- and this is significant -- the blessing of having that many more hands to work at scratching out a living in the post-Fall world of the Old Testament, where children were a necessity because of the work they did and the security they provided parents.<br><br>Now I'm sure that Doug will leap on this and suggest that I value my sons solely because of their ability to produce labor to shore up our family's existence. But while my eldest DID pick me up today at the airport, his value to me and to his dad and brother is that he is a uniquely wonderful, gifted, joy-bringing young man just because he exists -- which is what God intended children to be. I honor couples who choose to not have kids, I grieve with those who cannot, and I assume that couples who have lots of kids know more about their needs and desires and resources than I do. One thing I won't do, however, is make fun of childless couples, non-Christians, or even -- gasp! -- devout believers I know who choose not to marry or, when they do, choose not to have children. I think it wouldn't be asking too much to suggest that Farris consider not making fun of them, either.<br><br>keely<br><br><br><br><br><span style="font-style: italic;"></span><br><br><br>> To: thansen@moscow.com; vision2020@moscow.com; vpschwaller@gmail.com; joekc@adelphia.net<br>> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:32:31 -0400<br>> From: heirdoug@netscape.net<br>> CC: idahotom@hotmail.com; tomh@uidaho.edu<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?<br>> <br>> Tom-Tom,<br>> <br>> Having not had any children of your own I can see why you may not <br>> understand, comprehend or even get the gist of what I said earlier. You <br>> 'choose' to not have children by marrying late in life or what ever <br>> your reason was. I 'choose' to have children as many as God allows me <br>> to have. These two world views are at opposite ends of the spectrum. I <br>> choose to submit to God, 'be fruitful, multiply and subdue the earth' <br>> you choose to ignore God's command. That would be the 'gist' of my <br>> first sentence.<br>> <br>> The second sentence in the quote you try to make fun of is, in context, <br>> a probability rather than an absolute. I was told by a Mohammadean that <br>> they do not have to fight to win the religious war they just have to <br>> have more babies than the Christians and the war will be won. This was <br>> said to me over 30 years ago. I took his words to heart and now 8 <br>> children later, I have an opportunity to over come his dire prediction. <br>> To think that his motive was world domination back then. The more <br>> things change the more they stay the same.<br>> <br>> I come to find out that the Mohammadeans are not having the numbers of <br>> children that you would think. They come to the west and only end up <br>> having to 2 or 3 that the west is having. It is not the same for other <br>> countries. Japan is in a death spiral. There are 17 or 18 other <br>> European nations who depend on importing Muslims in order to function.<br>> <br>> Here are a couple of quotes from Mark Steyn's America Alone, you can <br>> put on the Say What? listing.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> "In their bizarre prioritization of "a woman's right to choose," <br>> feminists have helped ensure that European women will end their days in <br>> a culture that doesn't accord women the right to choose anything. <br>> Non-Muslim females in heavily Muslims neighborhoods in France now wear <br>> head scarves while out on the streets." --<br>> <br>> "The EU figures it needs another fifty million immigrants in the next <br>> few years just to maintain a big enough working population to fund the <br>> lavish social programs its vast retired army of baby boomers expects to <br>> enjoy. And the sonly available sources of immigrants are North Africa <br>> and the Middle-East. Whether these are the chaps to keep Pierre and <br>> Gerhard in the style to which they've become accustomed is highly <br>> doubtful: according to some Scandinavian statistics, 40 percent of <br>> those on welfare are immigrants. Elsewhere, the picture is similar: <br>> welfare regimes work a lot better for their Islamist beneficiaries than <br>> for native Continental ones. "--<br>> <br>> "What's the Muslim population of Rotterdam? Forty percent. What's the <br>> most popular boy's name in Belgium? Mohammed. In Amsterdam? Mohammed. <br>> In Malmo, Sweden? Mohammed. By 2005, it was the fifth most popular <br>> boy's name in the United Kingdom." --<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Now Tom, If you wish to quote me again please add these from Mark Steyn <br>> to make it complete.<br>> <br>> Thanks for giving me an opportunity to express my opinion here on you <br>> personal blog, Vision 2020.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> <br>> From: Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com><br>> <br>> To: heirdoug@netscape.net; vision2020@moscow.com; <br>> vpschwaller@gmail.com; joekc@adelphia.net<br>> <br>> Sent: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 5:35 am<br>> <br>> Subject: Say What?<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> "As more and more heathens 'choose' to not have children the number of <br>> Godly<br>> <br>> souls will increase. If the number of Christian births out number the <br>> number<br>> <br>> of Islamic births the battle will be over in 3 or 4 generations."<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> - Doug "No-Clue" Farris (March 10, 2007)<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Seeya round town, Moscow.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Tom Hansen<br>> <br>> Moscow, Idaho<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> ________________________________________________________________________<br>> Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- Unlimited storage and <br>> industry-leading spam and email virus protection.<br>> <br>> =======================================================<br>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> http://www.fsr.net <br>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> =======================================================<br><br /><hr />New home for Mom, no cleanup required. <a href='http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us' target='_new'>All starts here.</a></body>
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