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Keely, thanks for the response. I have a couple of comments.<br>
<br>
I've always been curious about this subject. I completely understand,
for example, why you would have faith in your husbands sobriety and
fiscal responsibility. We live amongst other people, and have become
very good at reading those we know closely. Your knowledge helps your
faith here, but what I don't understand is where your knowledge comes
from in your religion. You say, for example, that if Jesus wasn't the
son of God then your sins would not be forgiven. However, this is the
prototypical "straw man" argument (not that you are intending to use
it). The whole concept of sins needing to be forgiven originates in
the same set of books that explained how they can be forgiven. Without
knowledge of the Bible, there is no problem that needs to be solved.
So, it must be faith that leads you to believe that sins must be
forgiven and not knowledge.<br>
<br>
There is an incredible amount in Christianity (as with most religions)
that must be taken on faith. Faith that the world was created (though
not necessarily 6000 years ago). Faith that there exists a Creator who
is somehow outside of time and yet able to interact with the universe
He created. Faith that the miracles happened. Faith that the stories
laid out in the Bible are true and were inspired (if not penned
directly) by God. Faith that there is an afterlife. Faith that there
is a Heaven, and a Hell. Faith that the current set of books in the
Bible were chosen by God, and the others that were removed were made by
Man. Faith that the books are all-encompassing, i.e. there are not 25
God-inspired books lost through the ages. Faith that nothing was
altered, after the fact.<br>
<br>
Some of that can be found out, at least partially, through historical
research. Most of it cannot be found out barring a face-to-face
meeting with the Almighty. Even then, and maybe I'm the only one, I
would believe in His power but I wouldn't necessarily believe in his
truthfulness without at least some skepticism.<br>
<br>
Not that I think that believing in a religion that requires faith is a
bad thing by any means. It's just that, from my perspective - I would
have to call it fundamentally faith-based and not fact-based. Science
is fact-based. Anything that assumes an answer and then tries to prove
it is faith-based. If it were truly fact-based, no "non-biblical
history that Jesus was resurrected" would be enough. Assuming it's
true and then requiring data that contradicts it to nullify it is,
imho, faith-based.<br>
<br>
Also, aren't there passages in the Bible talking about how some things
have to be taken on faith? Something about not demanding to be shown
miracles?<br>
<br>
Btw, you're right that I was using Harry Potter and Albus Dumbledore to
show that the Bible is self-authenticating. Albus Dumbledore is a
fictional character in the book, made up out of whole cloth.<br>
<br>
Just to be clear, I have every respect for faith - even if I don't
share it. I also understand that you are not trying to say that your
religion is the only one that is based on facts. I just find it a bit
amusing that the one component of your religion that I would say sets
it apart from many others is that it requires faith. Pagan religions
don't require faith, for example. You can feel free to believe that
Loki is not real at your peril. I'm not schooled in world religions,
but the Abrahamic religions are the only ones that I'm aware of that
place faith on a pedestal.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
keely emerinemix wrote:
<blockquote cite="midBAY106-W19B1E1EF4FD769C13F6AD82ED0@phx.gbl"
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</style>Good questions.<br>
<br>
Faith is developed -- expended? brought about? -- on the basis of some
particular knowledge. I have faith, for example, that my husband won't
drink up the rent money for August because I know his character: in
nearly 23 years of marriage, he's not only never touched a drop of
alcohol, but is a scrupulously honest man besides. Relevant to the
claims of Christ, then, I have written testimony that there was a man,
Jesus of Nazareth, and that he said some astonishing things. If he
claimed to be God and predicted that he would die and rise again on the
third day and, centuries later, was still dead and rotting in the
ground, I might pick a few things from his teachings to emulate, but I
would conclude that he wasn't God and that my sins are still not
forgiven -- still charged to my account rather than imputed to his. <br>
<br>
There is a difference between there being "no non-biblical historical
record that Jesus was resurrected" and there being a (non-biblical)
"historical record that Jesus WAS NOT resurrected," and I believe -- <br>
obviously -- that the biblical record is correct. Nothing else
explains the willingness of 11 of the 12 first apostles to be martyred;
it hardly seems logical they would willingly die for something they
knew to be a lie, and yet they kept preaching the resurrected Christ,
whom they had seen and touched, even at the certainty of martyrdom.
If, however, there were no resurrection -- no raising Jesus from the
dead, no raising those who believe from the dead -- then I would try to
be as nice a person as I could be. <br>
<br>
Or not. It really wouldn't matter. Because to the Christian, our
lives are beyond pitiful if there is no resurrection, and rather
useless besides.<br>
<br>
I think your comment about Dumbledore from the Harry Potter books was
meant to contend that the Bible is a self-authenticating book; i.e.,
that it is what it says it is because it says it is. This is why I
believe that trying to prove the essential historicity of the Bible by
using texts that claim its essential historicity and efficacy for
teaching, equipping, etc., is ineffective. But I do believe that it
can be studied and analyzed in its historical, literary, and internally
consistent context. For example, if there were undeniable proof that
Mary gave birth to Jesus nine months after having sexual relations with
Joseph, that would undermine the teaching of the virgin birth. If
there were irrefutable proof that Jesus died in a chariot wreck, that
would undermine the doctrine of the atonement on the cross. Likewise,
if there were undeniable, irrefutable proof that Jesus simply swooned
on the cross and then died a happy old man decades later, that would
destroy the doctrine of the resurrection -- rightly called the capstone
in the arch of Christianity. <br>
<br>
Because I believe the evidence to be compelling, I then have faith in
Christ -- whether that faith was "turned on" by God in the Calvinist
sense, or whether I came to it on my own in the Arminian sense, I trust
in Christ. Where I differ from Heirdoug is in contending that "all
other faiths" are just based on hope and emotion. The scholar in me
recoils at such a thought, and the communitarian in me is equally put
off.<br>
<br>
(And I am kind of embarrassed to admit that I've never read a single
chapter of the Harry Potter series -- not because I'm one of those
evangelicals who thinks spells and wizards are icky in literature, but
because I don't like fantasy as a genre. I can barely understand
real-life happenings; fantasy and sci-fi are too much for my linear
brain. It's a failing, to be sure, and one I particularly feel
nowadays).<br>
<br>
Thanks for your comments, Paul.<br>
<br>
keely<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">"And these women that you spit on
as they try to change their worlds/</span><br
style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">Are immune to your consultations .
. . they're quite aware of what they're going through"</span><br>
(With apologies to David Bowie)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote>
<hr>Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 11:20:03 -0700<br>
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com">kjajmix1@msn.com</a><br>
CC: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:heirdoug@netscape.net">heirdoug@netscape.net</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net">joekc@adelphia.net</a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Mere Christianity!<br>
<br>
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How do either of you reconcile your fact-based religion with faith? If
there turns out to be no non-biblical historical record that Jesus was
resurrected, does that mean that you would stop believing it? If faith
is required, then how can it be fact-based? If faith is required, then
why criticize others for a religion based on emotion and hope? How is
faith different than emotion or hope? If faith has to be "rooted in
fact", then doesn't it cease to be faith?<br>
<br>
The reason I suggest "non-biblical" historical records is that trying
to use the books of the Bible to prove the existence of Jesus is a
little like using the books of Harry Potter to prove the existence of
Albus Dumbledore. An objective source that talks about the
resurrection of Jesus would be helpful. I'm not a historian - for all
I know there may be tens of thousands of such accounts, but what if
they were shown to be forgeries or something? Would that affect the
level of your belief?<br>
<br>
Does Doug Farris really know that much about "all other religions",
anyway? Is there no historical basis for the prophets of Islam (peace
be upon them), for example?<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
keely emerinemix wrote:
<blockquote cite="midBAY106-W5963BE293D9761B4D35AE82F30@phx.gbl">
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<br>
I believe that Christianity is based on evidence of the existence,
deity, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, but I also believe that
a defense of Christianity from Doug Farris is a little like a defense
of sharpened math skills from former Enron CEO Ken Lay.<br>
<br>
keely<br>
(who is so techno-inept that it's taken her an hour to figure out how
to log onto her computer while in Canada)<br>
<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">"And these women that you spit
on as they try to change their worlds/</span><br
style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">Are immune to your
consultations . . . they're quite aware of what they're going through"</span><br>
(With apologies to David Bowie)<br>
<br>
<br>
> From: <a class="EC_moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a><br>
> To: <a class="EC_moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:heirdoug@netscape.net">heirdoug@netscape.net</a>; <a
class="EC_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net">joekc@adelphia.net</a>;
<a class="EC_moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 05:51:53 -0700<br>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Mere Christianity!<br>
> <br>
> "As more and more heathens 'choose' to not have children the
number of Godly<br>
> souls will increase. If the number of Christian births out number
the number<br>
> of Islamic births the battle will be over in 3 or 4 generations."<br>
> <br>
> - Doug "No-Clue" Farris (March 10, 2007)<br>
> <br>
> Kinda gives you that old-time Christian, warm, fuzzy feeling,
doesn't it,<br>
> Joe?<br>
> <br>
> Please continue, No-Clue. We're listening.<br>
> <br>
> Tom "Born Again Pagan" Hansen<br>
> Moscow, Idaho<br>
> <br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> <br>
> From: <a class="EC_moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>
[<a class="EC_moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>]<br>
> On Behalf Of <a class="EC_moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:heirdoug@netscape.net">heirdoug@netscape.net</a><br>
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 11:39 PM<br>
> To: <a class="EC_moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net">joekc@adelphia.net</a>; <a
class="EC_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
> Subject: [Vision2020] Mere Christianity!<br>
> <br>
> Joe,<br>
> <br>
> Is this the sum total of your understanding. ..."something more
than <br>
> mere religious beliefs; maybe they are based on facts rather than <br>
> emotion. "<br>
> <br>
> Do you think and/or believe that one who has mere religious
beliefs is <br>
> fuctioning on emotion and not facts? Then you truly are mislead
because <br>
> the Christian faith is based upon nothing but facts, ie Jesus died
and <br>
> was buried and was raised from the dead on the third day. These
are not <br>
> based upon feelings and emotion. These three things are based upon
<br>
> facts. eye witness accounts of seeing Christ before during and
after <br>
> his death. All of the other religions of the world are based upon <br>
> feelings and emotion but not Christianity.<br>
> <br>
> Doug!<br>
>
________________________________________________________________________<br>
> Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- Unlimited storage and <br>
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<a class="EC_moz-txt-link-freetext"
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