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Good questions.<BR>
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Faith is developed -- expended? brought about? -- on the basis of some particular knowledge. I have faith, for example, that my husband won't drink up the rent money for August because I know his character: in nearly 23 years of marriage, he's not only never touched a drop of alcohol, but is a scrupulously honest man besides. Relevant to the claims of Christ, then, I have written testimony that there was a man, Jesus of Nazareth, and that he said some astonishing things. If he claimed to be God and predicted that he would die and rise again on the third day and, centuries later, was still dead and rotting in the ground, I might pick a few things from his teachings to emulate, but I would conclude that he wasn't God and that my sins are still not forgiven -- still charged to my account rather than imputed to his. <BR>
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There is a difference between there being "no non-biblical historical record that Jesus was resurrected" and there being a (non-biblical) "historical record that Jesus WAS NOT resurrected," and I believe -- <BR>
obviously -- that the biblical record is correct. Nothing else explains the willingness of 11 of the 12 first apostles to be martyred; it hardly seems logical they would willingly die for something they knew to be a lie, and yet they kept preaching the resurrected Christ, whom they had seen and touched, even at the certainty of martyrdom. If, however, there were no resurrection -- no raising Jesus from the dead, no raising those who believe from the dead -- then I would try to be as nice a person as I could be. <BR>
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Or not. It really wouldn't matter. Because to the Christian, our lives are beyond pitiful if there is no resurrection, and rather useless besides.<BR>
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I think your comment about Dumbledore from the Harry Potter books was meant to contend that the Bible is a self-authenticating book; i.e., that it is what it says it is because it says it is. This is why I believe that trying to prove the essential historicity of the Bible by using texts that claim its essential historicity and efficacy for teaching, equipping, etc., is ineffective. But I do believe that it can be studied and analyzed in its historical, literary, and internally consistent context. For example, if there were undeniable proof that Mary gave birth to Jesus nine months after having sexual relations with Joseph, that would undermine the teaching of the virgin birth. If there were irrefutable proof that Jesus died in a chariot wreck, that would undermine the doctrine of the atonement on the cross. Likewise, if there were undeniable, irrefutable proof that Jesus simply swooned on the cross and then died a happy old man decades later, that would destroy the doctrine of the resurrection -- rightly called the capstone in the arch of Christianity. <BR>
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Because I believe the evidence to be compelling, I then have faith in Christ -- whether that faith was "turned on" by God in the Calvinist sense, or whether I came to it on my own in the Arminian sense, I trust in Christ. Where I differ from Heirdoug is in contending that "all other faiths" are just based on hope and emotion. The scholar in me recoils at such a thought, and the communitarian in me is equally put off.<BR>
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(And I am kind of embarrassed to admit that I've never read a single chapter of the Harry Potter series -- not because I'm one of those evangelicals who thinks spells and wizards are icky in literature, but because I don't like fantasy as a genre. I can barely understand real-life happenings; fantasy and sci-fi are too much for my linear brain. It's a failing, to be sure, and one I particularly feel nowadays).<BR>
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Thanks for your comments, Paul.<BR>
<BR>
keely<BR>
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<BR><BR><SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic">"And these women that you spit on as they try to change their worlds/</SPAN><BR style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic">Are immune to your consultations . . . they're quite aware of what they're going through"</SPAN><BR>(With apologies to David Bowie)<BR><BR><BR><BR>
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Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 11:20:03 -0700<BR>From: godshatter@yahoo.com<BR>To: kjajmix1@msn.com<BR>CC: thansen@moscow.com; heirdoug@netscape.net; joekc@adelphia.net; vision2020@moscow.com<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Mere Christianity!<BR><BR>
<META content="Microsoft SafeHTML" name=Generator>How do either of you reconcile your fact-based religion with faith? If there turns out to be no non-biblical historical record that Jesus was resurrected, does that mean that you would stop believing it? If faith is required, then how can it be fact-based? If faith is required, then why criticize others for a religion based on emotion and hope? How is faith different than emotion or hope? If faith has to be "rooted in fact", then doesn't it cease to be faith?<BR><BR>The reason I suggest "non-biblical" historical records is that trying to use the books of the Bible to prove the existence of Jesus is a little like using the books of Harry Potter to prove the existence of Albus Dumbledore. An objective source that talks about the resurrection of Jesus would be helpful. I'm not a historian - for all I know there may be tens of thousands of such accounts, but what if they were shown to be forgeries or something? Would that affect the level of your belief?<BR><BR>Does Doug Farris really know that much about "all other religions", anyway? Is there no historical basis for the prophets of Islam (peace be upon them), for example?<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>keely emerinemix wrote:
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<BR> <BR>I believe that Christianity is based on evidence of the existence, deity, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, but I also believe that a defense of Christianity from Doug Farris is a little like a defense of sharpened math skills from former Enron CEO Ken Lay.<BR> <BR>keely<BR>(who is so techno-inept that it's taken her an hour to figure out how to log onto her computer while in Canada)<BR> <BR><SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic">"And these women that you spit on as they try to change their worlds/</SPAN><BR style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic">Are immune to your consultations . . . they're quite aware of what they're going through"</SPAN><BR>(With apologies to David Bowie)<BR><BR><BR>> From: <A class=EC_moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</A><BR>> To: <A class=EC_moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:heirdoug@netscape.net">heirdoug@netscape.net</A>; <A class=EC_moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net">joekc@adelphia.net</A>; <A class=EC_moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 05:51:53 -0700<BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Mere Christianity!<BR>> <BR>> "As more and more heathens 'choose' to not have children the number of Godly<BR>> souls will increase. If the number of Christian births out number the number<BR>> of Islamic births the battle will be over in 3 or 4 generations."<BR>> <BR>> - Doug "No-Clue" Farris (March 10, 2007)<BR>> <BR>> Kinda gives you that old-time Christian, warm, fuzzy feeling, doesn't it,<BR>> Joe?<BR>> <BR>> Please continue, No-Clue. We're listening.<BR>> <BR>> Tom "Born Again Pagan" Hansen<BR>> Moscow, Idaho<BR>> <BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> <BR>> From: <A class=EC_moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</A> [<A class=EC_moz-txt-link-freetext href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</A>]<BR>> On Behalf Of <A class=EC_moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:heirdoug@netscape.net">heirdoug@netscape.net</A><BR>> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 11:39 PM<BR>> To: <A class=EC_moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net">joekc@adelphia.net</A>; <A class=EC_moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>> Subject: [Vision2020] Mere Christianity!<BR>> <BR>> Joe,<BR>> <BR>> Is this the sum total of your understanding. ..."something more than <BR>> mere religious beliefs; maybe they are based on facts rather than <BR>> emotion. "<BR>> <BR>> Do you think and/or believe that one who has mere religious beliefs is <BR>> fuctioning on emotion and not facts? Then you truly are mislead because <BR>> the Christian faith is based upon nothing but facts, ie Jesus died and <BR>> was buried and was raised from the dead on the third day. These are not <BR>> based upon feelings and emotion. These three things are based upon <BR>> facts. eye witness accounts of seeing Christ before during and after <BR>> his death. All of the other religions of the world are based upon <BR>> feelings and emotion but not Christianity.<BR>> <BR>> Doug!<BR>> ________________________________________________________________________<BR>> Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- Unlimited storage and <BR>> industry-leading spam and email virus protection.<BR>> <BR>> =======================================================<BR>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <BR>> <A class=EC_moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://www.fsr.net/" target=_blank>http://www.fsr.net</A> <BR>> <A class=EC_moz-txt-link-freetext href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>> =======================================================<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> =======================================================<BR>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <BR>> <A class=EC_moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://www.fsr.net/" target=_blank>http://www.fsr.net</A> <BR>> <A class=EC_moz-txt-link-freetext href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>> =======================================================<BR><BR><BR>
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